King Commission Inquiry

















COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO CRICKET MATCH FIXING AND RELATED MATTERS

HELD ON: 26-06-2000

AT THE CENTRE OF THE BOOK


ON RESUMPTION ON 26 JUNE 2000 AT 10H05

COMMISSIONER: Good morning. I am sorry that we have been a bit delayed. We were apparently waiting for some documentation. So Ms Batohi who do we have next?

MS BATOHI: Thank you Mr Commissioner. The next witness will be Hamid Cassim. Before he takes the stand I wish to hand up to the Commission two documents. If I could hand them up and then I will just explain what they mean.

Diagram.

The one at the top, can you just switch them around, the one that doesn't look like a circle but more - that's the one. Unfortunately they are not numbered at this stage. But that particular one is a diagram of calls between Marlon Aronstam and Hansie Cronjé and attached to that is a list of all the calls. As you will note they are calls from the 8th of March - yes I beg your pardon, that's the 8th of May, but there are actually two different sets, let me just explain this.

If you look at page 2, if you look at the diagram at the top you will find at the bottom the calls between the numbers ending with 669, which is one of Mr Aronstam's phones and the number ending with 5136 which is one of Mr Cronjé's phones. That is 62 calls in all. Those calls between those two lines are reflected on the first page and the second page.

And the calls between the cellphone of Mr Aronstam ending with the numbers 3481 and Mr Cronjé's ending with 6451, which is on the top left-hand side of the diagram, which is the 67 coming into Mr Cronjé and the 16 back to Mr Aronstam, those calls are listed in pages, the last two pages 3 and 4.

Then the calls on the diagram itself you will notice between the home, the number ending with 167 is the home telephone of Mr Aronstam and you will see that there's five calls that were made to Mr Cronjé on the phone number ending 451 and these are not put in any list, they are included in the diagram because there's only just five calls between those two lines, and the other two calls between the numbers ending 669 belonging to Aronstam, and 6451 to Mr Cronjé. There are just two calls between those two lines and those are also listed on the diagram. That's just a brief explanation of what this document contains.

Referring to the second document just perhaps for clarity at this stage I should only place on record that these reflect calls between Mr Cassim, whose telephone number is depicted in the centre of that diagram and the various players in the South African team, including Mr Cronjé, and also calls between Mr Cassim and Mr Chawla.

May I also indicate at this stage that the list attached to the first page, pages 1 - 4 only contain details of the calls between Mr Cronjé and Mr Cassim. And the last page contains details of the calls that we have between Mr Cassim and Mr Chawla.

COMMISSIONER: So there are no details of calls, apart from the number of them, no details of calls made to other members of the team or management?

MS BATOHI: That is correct.

COMMISSIONER: I see.

MS BATOHI: They are available. It's just that they haven't been attached to this document.

COMMISSIONER: Now just one other thing. The calls between Sanjeev and Hamid Cassim, they, on the front diagram appear all to have been one way from Mr Chawla, Sanjeev, to Mr Cassim. Were there not calls going the other direction, or have I not interpreted this properly?

MS BATOHI: My investigator advises me that the problem with that is that we don't have the detailed billing of Mr Chawla's phone from the English. Hopefully once we get that we'd be able to trace those calls, but if you just bear with me I just want to clarify something with him.

On the detailed billing of the phone number of Mr Cassim that's reflected in the centre, ending with 5950, there are no calls going back to Mr Chawla, on that detailed billing of that particular phone.

Mr Cassim.

MR WITZ: Thank you Mr Commissioner. I will be leading the evidence of Mr Cassim. As you will see there is a slight change in the batting line-up from our side, and there are just two preliminary issues that I'd like to deal with before you swear Mr Cassim in and before he gives evidence.

The first aspect Mr Commissioner, I have been in communication with Mr Cronjé's counsel, and they have informed me, and I think they have also informed yourself, that they do not wish to question Mr Cassim. They are not going to cross-examine Mr Cassim and I think they have excused themselves from today's proceedings, anything further to do with Mr Cassim's evidence. That's the first aspect.

The second aspect which we just want to place on record, and this is from instructions from both Mr Aronstam as well as Mr Cassim, we want to dispel from our side, that is Mr Blumberg and myself, any notions that might have been brought across to this Commission re the late supply of statements, matters of that nature. What we would like to place on record is immediately after the proceedings on Friday the draft statements that were referred to by Mr Aronstam under cross-examination were shown to Mr Cronjé's counsel, this is the draft statement that was sent to the Commission, to Advocate Batohi as well as her investigating team, and other than small typographical errors, of which there were very few, the content of what he told the Commission is exactly the same, and they have satisfied themselves that there is nothing sinister, nothing's been added in, amended or changed. So any suggestions or notions that they've made towards either Advocate Batohi and/or her investigating team I think can be corrected. We want to set the position straight. We made everything available to them and I think they have now accepted that that is so.

The importance of that Mr Commissioner, and what we wish to place further on record, is that Mr Aronstam's statement as the suggestion was possibly made, was not tailored in to fit with the evidence. This statement had already been sent long before Mr Cronjé's statement became available and his evidence as per that statement was one and the same. This was done on the weekend of the 17th and 18th of June, sent to the Commission on the 19th of June, and the signed one was only handed in and the copy was immediately made available to Mr Cronjé's legal team.

The other aspect I think of utmost importance is that in regard to Mr Cassim, who is now going to give evidence this morning before you Mr Commissioner, his statement was made in the form of an affidavit after an initial meeting with Advocate Batohi and her investigating team, and she requested, purely for the purposes of placing proper evidence, assisting the Commission and placing proper facts before the Commission if it could be done in the form of an affidavit or a statement which we did. It was faxed through to Advocate Batohi here at the Commission and immediately we received communication from Mr Cronjé's legal representatives we then cleared it with Advocate Batohi who was of the opinion that between herself and the investigating team there is a purpose to this Commission which is to enquire and make findings and report and make recommendations and she gave her full permission and utmost assistance and said you can make it available immediately to Mr Cronjé's legal team. This was done after we cleared it with Advocate Batohi. We faxed it to them, so they have been in possession of Mr Cassim's statement which we are going to hand in to you for a few weeks already before they commenced with these proceedings. And all this was done with the consent of Advocate Batohi and her investigating team.

The only other aspects that we just wish to deal with before leading Mr Cassim's evidence is the following. It was agreed at our initial meeting, and it's always been the position with Advocate Batohi as well as the investigation team, especially in relation to Mr Blumberg and myself representing Mr Aronstam, who only came in at a later stage, and in particular Mr Cassim who is before you today, that all statements of interested parties, in order to prepare the matter, would be made available. We obviously understand that, for example, certain telephone lists and calls due to modern technology have only become available at a late stage but immediately they have become available we have had full assistance and cooperation from Advocate Batohi as well as the investigation team. They have made copies for us, provided us with copies; given us access to the transcript if necessary and we, from our point, that's Mr Blumberg and myself, we've got no objection with the way the proceedings have been conducted. We have had full cooperation and assistance. We obviously understand that sometimes documents do come late.

Now the very, very last aspect that we just want to place on record, which is also important in the spirit and the way that the Commission has been so far and should be conducted, is that in essence the Commission have gone the proverbial extra mile to accommodate both Mr Blumberg and myself on behalf of our clients to provide all the documentation etc. And other than those preliminary points, which I have cleared up, I'd ask permission to call Mr Cassim to give evidence and to be sworn in. Thank you Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr Witz.

MS BATOHI: Mr Commissioner before you swear in the witness perhaps it might be an appropriate stage for me to also place on record that on Friday afternoon after proceedings were postponed copies of the notes that my investigators took during consultations with Mr Aronstam were made available and were in fact handed to Mr Cronjé's team.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Cassim, are you prepared to take the oath.

MR CASSIM: Yes.

HAMID CASSIM: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR WITZ: Thank you Mr Commissioner. Mr Commissioner just before proceeding with the evidence I have arranged for the original affidavit, that is the one that was provided to the Commission as well as Mr Cronjé's legal team as well as all other legal representatives who needed a copy of same, to be handed in to you. That is the original affidavit attested to and signed by Mr Cassim.

And then coupled with that there is a letter which I am just going to read into the record. This is from Mr Blumberg, the attorney, it is addressed to the United Cricket Board of South Africa, Wanderers Club, Corlett Drive, Johannesburg. At that stage we called it "Cronjé Inquiry", we weren't sure who was actually going to be sitting on the inquiry before it became the King Inquiry. It says as follows:

"Dear Sirs....."

and this is in response to a telephone conversation Mr Blumberg had with Ms Bronwyn Wilkinson -

"I refer to our telephonic conversation today. I am representing Mr Hamid Cassim, who will no doubt be called to appear at the anticipated inquiry. It will be appreciated if you would advise me as soon as a decision is made as to the nature, time and venue of the inquiry. On behalf of my client I want to place on record that my client is prepared to offer his full cooperation to the authorities in regard to the inquiry, or any other authorities that will be investigating the matter. Due to the urgency and gravity of the matter I would appreciate it if you would address all correspondence directly to me at his fax number and call me on his mobile number.

Yours sincerely.

I W Blumberg"

We would like that to form part of the record.

A further aspect relating to this I did discuss this with my learned friend Adv Manca, who appears on behalf of the United Cricket Board, and he says they are aware of this. They have had this for some time in their possession. So there's no other statements floating around as might have been possibly suggested. They now have a full set of everything and they have this document. Thank you.

Mr Cassim you have a statement in front of you, an affidavit which you've signed and which you've attested to, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Do you adhere and confirm the contents of that affidavit which you've signed in Johannesburg?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Mr Cassim, for record purposes I intend taking you through the statement, reading the statement into the record and I will also take you through certain aspects in which I intend leading you especially in view of new documentation that's come to hand relating to this matter. With the leave of the Commission I would like you to start off by just reading into the record your affidavit, the first portion, and telling the Court your age, where you were born, and a little bit about your background, please. Take it slowly.

MR CASSIM: "I the undersigned, Hamid Cassim, an adult male, presently aged 46 years state as follows:

1. The facts herein contained are, save where otherwise apparent, both within my personal knowledge and belief and are true.

2. I have been requested to make a statement to the King Commission of Inquiry into cricket match-fixing and related matters.

3. BRIEF BACKGROUND HISTORY

3.1 I was born in Ophirton in Johannesburg and I attended school up until standard nine when my father died. I was then aged sixteen years and owing to circumstances when I was forced to leave school I ran a small stall in Plein and De Villiers Streets, Johannesburg.

3.2 I was also employed at Teltron in Selby, Johannesburg where I worked as a storeman for approximately one and a half years.

3.3 I thereafter joined my brother running a tuckshop.

3.4 I was married according to Moslem rites and I have three children born of my marriage.

3.5 I have a daughter presently aged 22 years as well as two sons aged 16 years and 18 years respectively.

3.6 From approximately 1981 to 1987 I was employed at a firm as a store manager.

3.7 I moved to Azaadville in approximately 1981 and I am presently still residing there at ....."

Mr Commissioner can ...(intervention)

MR WITZ: You don't have to read your address into the record.

MR CASSIM:

3.8 "In order about 1987 to 1994 I was working with cousins of mine in a pharmaceutical business in Hillbrow called Hillbrow Pharmacy.

3.9 I also opened an electronic business near Highpoint Hillbrow in 1994.

3.10 I am presently running a sweet shop in Fordsburg, Johannesburg called Sweet Junction.

3.11 I was previously in or about 1991 also taken in for questioning by the members of the South African Police who required information from me on a certain Mac Maharaj which related to an incident called "Operation Vula".

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim just briefly there, then the reason for you mentioning it in your statement, I want you to just give a very brief background to the Commissioner what this is all about. Is this the same Minister, Maharaj, that is referred to? Just tell us briefly if it is what this related to.

MR CASSIM: That's correct it's Minister Mac Maharaj, who was the Minister of Transport, who used to come to the pharmacy with a friend of - was a friend of my cousin, Yusaf Mohamed, and we developed a relationship and from there on I used to look after him, we used to go out for meals and we had a lot of things in common where I used to talk to him. He used to always come to the pharmacy for his medical supplies and from there on we developed a good relationship.

MR WITZ: What happened in connection with the police, why were you taken in for questioning?

MR CASSIM: I was taken in for questioning because they thought I knew a lot of information regarding Mr Maharaj and regarding Operation Vula.

MR WITZ: And you were detained for a period of time and then released when they realised that you couldn't assist them any further in relation to their enquiries is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct. They were detaining me under Section 29 for about 36 hours.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim I want you to just deal very, very briefly now with paragraph 4, that is your own sporting activities, what sports you participated in and I think possibly to put something to rest, if you can assist the Commissioner, where the nickname of "Banjo" comes from. I see you've been referred to many times as "Banjo" Cassim.

MR CASSIM: "BRIEF BACKGROUND HISTORY RE SPORTING ACTIVITIES"

4.1 In my school life and thereafter I only played soccer. I started off playing in Ophirton and I thereafter in my later years played for Dynamos as a goalkeeper. I further, as a result of my love for soccer, ended up having a share in the Dynamos Football Club".

Mr Commissioner the nickname "Banjo" came while I was playing football. I was playing goalkeeper and we saw a movie and in the movie was a game and there was a goalkeeper in the movie and thereafter all my friends kept on calling me "Banjo".

COMMISSIONER: I take it that Dynamos Football Club is not the Moscow Dynamos, is it?

MR CASSIM: No, not.

"4.2 In the years that I grew up in South Africa it was at the time of the sports isolation and sporting boycotts and during my school career there were no facilities for cricket at my school".

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim this might possibly be the most difficult question that you have to answer today. You are obviously aware in consultations we've had Mr Blumberg, your attorney, supports Arsenal, I support the champion side, Manchester United, are you prepared to disclose to this Commission which side in the Premier League you support?

MR CASSIM: Advocate Witz are we going to go through this again?

MR WITZ: Just tell the Commissioner briefly please.

MR CASSIM: My love for football and the team I support is Liverpool.

MR WITZ: Now it is not just a matter of supporting, obviously you've seen them play on the television, I'd like you to tell the Commissioner in particular, whether you have ever seen them in real life and what you've done in connection with the team that you support.

MR CASSIM: Yes, in real life I have seen Liverpool play. Round about 1991, a friend of mine, who has good connections with Liverpool arranged to get us two tickets to go and watch a match at Old Trafford. It was something that I would never forget for the rest of my life. We went to London. I thought he was joking with me when he told me he's got two tickets for the match. I remember, recall we went to a hotel called the Crown Plaza in Manchester, waiting at the hotel I thought this friend of Amed is joking with me. A gentleman came up to us and Amed introduced - they spoke to one another and when I realised who the gentleman was it took me back. He was the Chief Executive of Liverpool, Mr Peter Robinson. He gave us two tickets for the match, to sit with the directors of Liverpool at Old Trafford. I still could not believe it that we had two tickets to go and watch a match at Old Trafford and sit with the directors of Liverpool. It is something I can never forget.

MR WITZ: Now besides the actual match and besides the actual result what I would like to just establish from you, did you do anything further, did you collect any memorabilia, photographs, anything in relation to the FA Cup? If you can just briefly tell the Commissioner how far you went in this regard.

MR CASSIM: Regarding memorabilias of Liverpool Football Club I have in my shop photos of the entire Liverpool team signed by every player. I have a T-shirt signed by the 1991 Liverpool team that won the double. I have a soccer ball signed by the Liverpool team. I have two other T-shirts that was given to a friend of mine, Amid, which is presently in my shop, signed by the entire Liverpool team.

MR WITZ: And these have all been framed and you display these openly. That is your love and your passion for the game as well as your support of Liverpool, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Now leaving the soccer aside I'd like you to just turn and deal further with your introduction to cricket, in particular the Indian cricketers and the captain of the Indian, Mr Kapil Dev. Tell the Commissioner how did this happen and in what circumstances. You can deal with it in your statement, please.

MR CASSIM: MY INTRODUCTION TO CRICKET AND IN PARTICULAR THE INDIAN CRICKETERS AND THE CAPTAIN OF THE INDIAN CRICKET KAPIL DEV.

5.1 In 1993, after the international sports boycott and isolation had been lifted the Indian side came to South Africa to play against South Africa.

5.2 My sister-in-law had met Dr Ali Irani, the physiotherapist of the Indian Cricket Team while they were in Zimbabwe shortly before coming to South Africa.

5.3 I went to fetch my children at one of the earlier games that the Indian team played in Springs and I was thereafter introduced to Dr Irani by my sister-in-law.

5.4 During the course of the conversation he told me that he himself, and the Indian cricket team were staying at the Sandton Sun and he invited me there that evening.

5.5 I went to the Sandton Sun Hotel where I gave Dr Irani some bandages which I had obtained from the pharmacy and while talking to him, Kapil Dev came into Dr Irani's room and I was introduced to him.

5.6 Kapil Dev wanted to go out that evening with Dr Irani who told him that he was busy and it was eventually arranged that I would take him. Myself and Kapil Dev went out that evening for dinner and I also showed him various parts of Johannesburg and we thereafter struck up a relationship and in fact became very good friends. He invited me to Bloemfontein to watch one of the cricket games".

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim I'd like you to tell the Commissioner, this is really your first experience in meeting an international cricket player and in particular a cricket player of that calibre. Where did you take him to and how did this affect you?

MR CASSIM: When I was introduced to Mr Kapil Dev, when he walked into the room I was sitting there on the bed with Dr Ali Irani and he walked in and I looked at him. I said this is the Mr Kapil Dev that the world is talking about. But when Dr Ali Irani introduced me to Kapil Dev and when we struck up this relationship and I took him out that evening, we went for dinner, I took him to Hillbrow Pharmacy, and when I walked with him in Hillbrow Pharmacy the people looked at it as if I was the hero walking in there, when in fact Kapil was there. And people could not believe that I, a person of my calibre, brought Kapil Dev to Hillbrow Pharmacy.

I took him to my family members and a brother of mine just could not believe that he met Kapil. He was a keen cricketer lover from those days, and when I introduced him to Mr Kapil Dev he was shocked.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim I think in particular, and I think this will be common cause, when the Indian cricket team toured South Africa as well as when the Pakistan cricket team toured South Africa you took the two cricket teams to family for dinner here in Cape Town, in Kenwyn, to your family, as well as in Johannesburg. Just tell the Commissioner very, very briefly in this regard what affect did this have on you first of all as well as your family. And in particular if you can tell us as well what happened when you sent Kapil Dev, Mr Kapil Dev into your family shop here in Cape Town.

MR CASSIM: Mr Commissioner I would arrange for the Indian cricket team when they were out down here in South Africa to have a meal at my brother's place in Johannesburg. The entire team would practically come for the - they used to love their vegetarian food. Most of them were not meat eaters so they used to enjoy vegetarian food and I would ask my sister-in-law to prepare the meals for them. But when I took them there I would invite all my friends to come to the house and meet the players because, I mean very seldom do you get to players of this calibre, close to players of this calibre. And what it has done to me it is unreal. The players, the relationship I formed with these players is something I can't express really.

When they used to travel to play in places like Cape Town, I had two nieces down here in Cape Town. In actual fact I am going to make a joke out of this, they used to call me "Panic Mechanic", because I used to call them over 20 times to 30 times, "make sure you've got enough food - please do this, please do that and...." they used to say, they call me Hamid, "Hamid stop panicking, you're becoming a panic mechanic now".

While we were in Cape Town I toured once with the Indian cricket team, I flew down to Cape Town, and myself and Kapil went for a drive. A nephew of mine's got a shop up in Balmoral, they stay open till night, and I told Kapil, "do me a favour, go in the shop and buy something, let's see if they'll recognise you". And as a sport Kapil played along. He walked into the shop, bought something, and the guy said to him, "but I know you, you are Mr Kapil Dev", and he said "ja". So he said "with who are you here?". So he says, "well I was just sent in by your uncle here to come and buy a drink".

MR WITZ: Now what I'd like you to just deal with from thereafter, you have kept in regular contact with Mr Kapil Dev, is that correct, as well as many of the other international players from both the Indian team, the Pakistani team as well as the South African team?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Now I'd like you to just deal with your statement and I'd like you to deal with the time period 1993 when Mr Kapil Dev invited you to attend a game in India. Just tell the Commissioner and read this into the record, what happened on that particular - that game in 1993?

MR CASSIM: "In or about 1993 Kapil Dev invited me to 5.8attend a game in India which I did, and it was there that I met and was introduced to the Indian players and I also met the South African players. I had a very good relationship with all the South African players as well as a large number of the overseas players. I formed a very good relationship, in particular with South African players like Fanie de Villiers, Brian MacMillan and Daryll Cullinan."

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim just stopping over there, when you talk about a good relationship, explain to the Commissioner, in your words, what is a good relationship. Is it a matter of tickets? Is it a matter of a meal? What do you call a good relationship with, in particular, these players that you have now mentioned?

MR CASSIM: With the players such as Fanie de Villiers, Brian MacMillan and Daryll Cullinan, and most of the other players, it was just not tickets. We used to go out for meals. I used to eat a lot with Fanie de Villiers, Brian MacMillan, Daryll I used to go and visit him at home sometimes. He used to come around with me. But it just - it wasn't just for tickets that I formed the relationship with these players. What it actually was I formed was for the friendship and the love of the game, cricket, after I developed, that I just wanted to be around these players.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim in regards to the players what did you get in return from the players besides the friendship and besides the mutual respect that you had for each other?

MR CASSIM: The players would often give me mementoes, including T-shirts, photographs and signed memorabilia from the various test games that they played. From Fanie de Villiers, the last World Cup he played in he gave me an autographed T-shirt from the entire team. Lance Klusener gave me a top. Daryll gave me his. Kapil Dev gave me a test cap of his which I still got today. He gave me an autobiography book of his. The last one that he just wrote, he sent me one down when the Indian cricket team came.

MR WITZ: Now the relationship became such that eventually there were certain benefit matches that were arranged in India and out of all the people you are the person that was approached by the Indian cricket team and others to arrange certain players to come to India and play in the benefit game. Just explain that to the Commissioner, how did this come about and what did you do to put this into operation?

MR CASSIM: Mr Commissioner with my relationship with Mr Kapil Dev there used to be benefit matches arranged in India and he would call me to arrange players. I would practically phone the players I think 20 to 30 times a day sometimes, just to find out if they will be available to play. Then certain players had to go via their agents. At that point of time I think Jonty Rhodes was the most famous player and to get hold of Jonty was very tough but eventually I used to get through to his agent, but Jonty was never available, and there was numerous players that I'd send across to play in benefit matches in India. I think I will name them: Clive Rice was one of them; Fanie de Villiers; Merrick Pringle; Errol Stuart; Mike Rindell; Derek Crookes; HD Ackerman; Dave Callaghan; Andrew Hudson; Adrian Kuiper.

MR WITZ: Now I see you added in Mr Kuiper at a later stage, this is the name that you forgot, and it's now been added in to your statement, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Now tell the Commissioner who was this benefit match for and which of these players went over to India that you invited.

MR CASSIM: The benefit matches were - the one that I recall very clearly was for Madanlal, the Indian cricketer, but that particular match Clive Rice went down; Fanie de Villiers, Mike Rindell; Fanie took his dad along, Braam; and I was given a free ticket by Mr Kapil Dev, via Air India, to attend the matches.

MR WITZ: Now after attending these matches, and after this, what I understand from you, was a very, very successful benefit match in the series of benefit matches, what recognition did you receive from any of the players or from the Indian cricket team in regard to you arranging these players to come over to play in these benefit matches?

MR CASSIM: In recognition I received from Kapil Dev, and his wife Romi was very much into arranging the benefit matches, that were a big success they used to thank me for everything that I used to do. They sent me the ticket, they used to look after me, accommodation, and the treatment I received there I can't express it at the moment, it was too much.

MR WITZ: And Mr Cassim what treatment did the South African cricket players, the ones that you took over, because you went over on this particular tour or this benefit match, what treatment did they receive or reciprocal treatment from the Indian and the Pakistani test players?

MR CASSIM: The treatment that they received there was excellent. They could not believe the treatment that they were receiving there.

MR WITZ: And as I understand further from you that in recognition for the part that you played in arranging these players and arranging the benefit matches you also received a signed shield, a cricket shield, from the then captain or previous captain, Mr Azharuddin, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: You've still got that signed shield, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Mr Cassim the next aspect that I just want to deal with in particular is, you obviously started developing a very keen interest by mixing with the cricket players, following the games, going on some of the tours, so-to-speak, and the benefit matches, and as I understand from you most of the cricket players, both local and international all had access to your mobile number?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: In fact dealing with your mobile number, which I don't want you read on to the record in view of what has previously happened, it seems and especially in view of the lists handed in this morning from both Mr Aronstam and yourself, you are obviously keeping some cell providers as well as Telkom very, very happy.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: I'd like you to just deal with paragraph 6.3 of your statement and just tell the Commissioner further in regard to your relationship with the international cricket players.

6.3 My relationship as such with the international cricketers as well as the South African cricketers is such that even when certain of the Indian cricketers required medical treatment and surgery, I was contacted in order to make the necessary arrangements for them.

6.4 I made all the arrangements with orthopaedic surgeons, Drs Noble and Ferguson for medical treatment and surgery for, amongst others, the following cricketers:

Ajay Jadeja; Srinath; Ajit Agorkar.

6.5 I made all the necessary appointments with the doctors and I also made all the necessary arrangements to fetch the cricketers from Johannesburg International Airport and then take them to the said doctors for medical treatment and operative procedures.

MR WITZ: And this is something that has happened recently when these cricketers came here for medical treatment and surgical treatment, you made all the arrangements, fetched, took them, looked after them and handed them to the doctors and took them back to airports when their stay was finished, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: I'd like you to just read paragraph 6.5 into the record of your statement please.

MR WITZ: Yes.

6.5 I would state that because of my nature as well as my good friendship with Kapil Dev, as well as other cricket players, it became common knowledge amongst not only the international cricket players but also the South African cricket players that they felt that they could always call on me at any time.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim I want to deal with the next position, besides the nickname of "Banjo" you have also become quite famous for your biltong. A lot of reference has been made in these proceedings for your biltong and I think you kindly provided some of your famous biltong, "Banjo's Biltong", to the Commission last week. You also have some present with you. Tell us a little bit about this biltong and what's the secret of the biltong?

MR CASSIM: The secret of the biltong is, and I'd notice whenever the players used to tour around the country food was not available at all times and when I went to the Wanderers once I saw them having biltong and I used to also always carry biltong with me. I am also a biltong lover. The very first time, the person who I ever gave biltong to, a cricketer, was Desmond Haynes. It was in Inderabad(?) in the Hero Cup. He saw me eating biltong and he said, "you are from South Africa man, that meat, I know that meat" and he took my entire packet, I'll never forget that. But the biltong, nevertheless the biltong part is that whenever the cricketers were around I would always give them biltong and sweets.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim how did you arrange to give them the biltong and the sweets and in particular when they went on tour how did you arrange this? What did you do in order to facilitate this?

MR CASSIM: In order to facilitate this, if they were going on tour I would take it myself, personally myself to the airport, meet the players, wish them luck. On other occasions, like Goolam Rajah's wife would - like the last Goolam Rajah's wife came to buy biltong from my shop and the nature, the person that I am I couldn't charge her for the biltong. I gave her the biltong, and I sent more biltong for all the other players, it was via Goolam Rajah's wife.

MR WITZ: And we'll deal just now with Mr Goolam Rajah because I see according to this very impressive phone list of yours and the modern technology and this wide spread of phone calls, you have also had various telephone conversations with Mr Rajah, what is the position in regard to Mr Rajah and your so-called promised T-shirt that you are still waiting for, cricket shirt?

MR CASSIM: The so-called promised T-shirt was Ajit Agorkar when he came down here for treatment, we kept a good relationship and I still asked him please, for my collection, can you give me an autographed T-shirt of the Indian cricket team and he said fine. I phoned Goolam I said please, this was in Sharjah, I phoned Goolam and I said, "do me a favour please, Ajit Agorkar is going to give you a T-shirt signed by the Indian cricket team, bring it for me". When all this news broke out regarding the cricket, the match-fixing and batting scandals, up until today I am still waiting for my T-shirt from Goolam Rajah.

MR WITZ: Well we will speak to Advocate Manca, maybe he can arrange something for you.

The next aspect that I would like to deal with is that, as I understand the position from you, when the test matches or the One-day internationals were being played, in particular here in South Africa, you yourself used to go along with the international teams, with the South African team, go and watch the matches etc, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Now I think probably one of the most important aspects dealing with this commission is your relationship with Mr Hansie Cronjé, previously the captain of the South African cricket side. I'd like you to just explain to the Commissioner, dealing in particular with paragraph 7 of your statement, how you came to meet Mr Cronjé and what relationship you built up with him.

MR CASSIM: MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MR HANSIE CRONJé

7.1 I was first introduced to and met Mr Cronjé in about 1993 when he was playing for South Africa in the Hero Cup.

7.2 I thereafter me him on diverse occasions when the South African cricket team were playing.

7.3 I became friendly with Mr Cronjé in about 1996 when I was invited to the Sharjah cup which was being played in Dubai where South Africa were participating.

7.4 I had given Mr Cronjé my mobile number and he had also given me his mobile number.

7.5 I would say that a lot of the South African cricket team had my mobile number and I also had their mobile numbers.

7.6 There was a regular contact between myself and all the players. This was based purely on a friendship and mutual respect basis.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim I just want to interrupt you there because we've been given a very, very impressive list of phone calls, and I think this might now be the appropriate time to deal with the phone calls. You have a copy which was provided to you by Adv Batohi and her investigating team. It's a diagram, together with many, many pages of phone calls that have been made. I would like you to turn to the diagram.

Mr Commissioner you will see this is not in the statement. This is a document that recently became available and we would like this opportunity just to deal with it. I'd like Mr Cassim to explain to the Commission what this depicts, what this is about, because I think this might be of some importance to the Commission.

Do you have the document in front of you Mr Cassim?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR WITZ: Now what I would like you to do, and I'd like you to leave Mr Cronjé for last because we will go back and deal with Mr Cronjé and your phone calls to him. There's a separate list that's been provided. I'd like you to just briefly take the Commission through and explain what is your nature, what are these phone calls about and what happened in the course of these phone calls and deal with each of the players that are depicted in the diagrams that you spoke to or phoned you back, please.

MR CASSIM: It's my nature to phone all the players at all times. Whenever I take my cellphone out and when I scroll to it I will see Paul Adams name, I will call him - "Hey Paul, wat doen jy? Hoe's Kaap?" So that was really my relationship I had with Paul Adams.

Fanie and I had a very good relationship. I could call him any time and he would call me. It's just that I tried to keep in contact with all the players.

With Daryll the same likewise. I could just call all these players and speak to them whenever I wanted to. I felt it was an honour to be in contact with these players.

MR WITZ: Right. I'd like you to just continue and go through this list of all the various players that are depicted there and then I will deal with further aspects.

COMMISSIONER: Before you do that, I just want to know Ms Batohi, on this list where it says "no name defined", does it follow from that that those particular calls don't appear in the first page depiction or do they?

MS BATOHI: No Mr Commissioner. All it means is that there is no name of the tower or the beacon, it just didn't come up. So we are not sure where the call was made from.

COMMISSIONER: But you know to whom the call was made?

MS BATOHI: Yes that's correct.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

MR WITZ: Thank you. Mr Cassim I would like you to just proceed and continue and I would like you to go through one-by-one and tell the Commissioner what these calls were about, who you spoke to, who speaks back to you in the South African cricket team, because I see it goes from the physiotherapist to The Management, to Mr Rajah. Tell us briefly what is this all about?. What is your passion and love for the phone and speaking to the cricket players and The Management.

MR CASSIM: I used to call - let's start off with Daryll Cullinan. If I needed any tickets for the match I would call Daryll. He would call me back, "Hamid, I've got this or that". Goolam Rajah I used to practically - because I used to have a lot of my friends pestering me for tickets. I would call Goolam, "please give me a ticket or two". "I will do that". With Jonty Rhodes, likewise. Herschelle as well, Kallis. Lance Klusener, Lance Klusener I never had to send him anything, biltong, they were probably staying in Johannesburg I would arrange a music system for him, they can listen to music in their room. It's just my nature. When I've got the phone it's just my nature to phone all these players.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim I've seen Mr Pollock also received certain calls from you, the present captain of the South African cricket team and you've mentioned all the other players etc. Now there's been some mention in this Commission, as I understand, about a music system or a CD player or a video player, video machine. I think Mr Hudson's name was mentioned, as well as Mr Cullinan. Just tell the Commissioner very, very briefly what is this about, what was all this about.

MR CASSIM: Regarding Mr Hudson I think they broke into his - he had a burglary at home and I was talking to him, I said Andrew I will arrange a video machine for you. Lance Klusener wanted a walkman. I said I will arrange it for you at cost plus 5 or 10%. I can't recall what was the percentage mark-up. For Brian MacMillan as well. I mean I got him a video machine at cost plus 10%.

MR WITZ: Then what did you expect in return for doing this, for arranging them cost plus, obviously a few percent profit to yourself, what was the purpose of this?

MR CASSIM: The purpose was to build a good relationship with the players.

MR WITZ: Now I am going to turn back to the phone calls at a later stage. I'd like to just take you back to your statement to page 10, and I'd like you to deal there in particular, turning again to Mr Cronjé at paragraph 7.7. Just explain who this famous Indian actress is, what she was doing in South Africa and what happened between yourself, herself and Mr Cronjé, please.

MR CASSIM: Yes.

7.7 Dr Ali Irani had given my number to a famous Indian actress, Rino Desai, who had come to South Africa. The actress who was also interested in cricket was told that I had a very good relationship with the cricket players and she wished to meet the crickets players, including the captain, Hansie Cronjé.

7.8 This was during the time of the Triangular Series between South Africa and England and Zimbabwe and the One-day internationals were due to start. I took Rino Desai to the Wanderers and I introduced her to Mr Hansie Cronjé whom she wanted to meet.

Just regarding to 7.7, Dr Ali Irani would give - when anybody comes to South Africa and of the Indian people he would always give my number and say, "Hamid this is a brother of mine, this is a good personal friend of mine, please look after them". Because Dr Ali Irani knew that was my nature.

MR WITZ: Now is it correct that during the time of the Triangular Series, that was between South Africa, England and Zimbabwe, and these were the One-day internationals which were about to start, you took this famous Indian actress Rino Desai, to the Wanderers, to the nets where the South African team were practising. Just tell the Commissioner a little bit about this and what happened there that particular day or that afternoon.

MR CASSIM: That particular day when I took Rino to the Wanderers the South African cricket team was practising at their nets. I introduced her to Jonty Rhodes, to Lance Klusener, Herschelle Gibbs, Craig Smith, if I can recall, Kallis, Pollock, but she was most interested in Hansie Cronjé and Jonty Rhodes.

MR WITZ: Now after the introduction and after you spoke to Mr Cronjé, together with the actress certain conversation took place and this was basically a day or two after the Centurion, the test that's been referred to in this Commission, the final test match in this particular series. Just tell the Commissioner what happened there, what was the tenure of the conversation.

MR CASSIM: "After introduction and while having a brief conversation with Hansie Cronjé I joked with him about the unusual declaration that he had made at Centurion which allowed England to go on and win the game. I said to him, 'you should have told me about the declaration beforehand, I could have made some money'. He replied to me in a joking manner, 'kom praat'."

MR WITZ: Did you take it any further than a joking manner or did you read anything into that, what you had said to him and what his reply to you was?

MR CASSIM: I took it into a joking manner and I just left it there.

MR WITZ: Now in regard to your own conversations with Mr Cronjé, obviously when you weren't in the company of some famous, attractive Indian actress or filmstar, when you spoke to him yourself, either face-to-face and in particular when you spoke to him telephonically, what language did the two of you speak to each other in?

MR CASSIM: Most of the time we would speak in Afrikaans.

MR WITZ: Is it also correct that at a later occasion Mr Cronjé also gave you a signed T-shirt, his own shirt, after the game that they had played against England?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim I want to just deal and take you to a further step in regard to your statement, and this is your own introduction to the person that is known as Sanjay Chawla, and we will refer to him for the purposes of this Commission as Sanjay. I'd like you to tell the Commission, take it from your statement, in what circumstances you met him, how you met him and what transpired further, please.

MR CASSIM: MY INTRODUCTION TO SANJAY CHAWLA

8.1 It was during the time period that the Triangular Series was taking place in South Africa between England, South Africa and Zimbabwe that I received a phone call from Sanjay Chawla. He told me that he had heard from people in India that I had a very good relationship with many of the international test cricketers and that I also knew a lot of the South African test cricketers.

8.2 He told me that he was coming to South Africa for the Triangular Series; that he was a cricket enthusiast, and that he followed test cricket worldwide.

8.3 He told me that he would be coming to South Africa and wanted to meet with me and if possible get introduced to some of the players.

8.4 Sanjay phoned me and told me that he was coming to South Africa on a Sunday and asked me whether I would be prepared to fetch him at the airport, to which I agreed.

8.5 He arrived on Sunday morning and I fetched him at the airport.

8.6 He is a young Indian male approximately between 30 and 35 years of age, tall and thin.

8.7 I took him with me to my business premises in Fordsburg where he relaxed and had something to eat.

8.8 In the time that he was in my company he told me that he had heard about me from a lot of people in India. He told me further that he had heard that I had an exceptionally good relationship with a lot of international cricket players. He told me that he himself was a cricket enthusiast who followed cricket worldwide, and he also told me that he would like to gamble on cricket.

8.9 In the time that I spent with him as well as the telephone calls that I had from him I gathered the distinct impression that he was more interested in gambling on cricket and he was most definitely not what is commonly termed "a bookmaker".

8.10 He enquired whether South African players were staying in Durban as he was going to Durban that evening and I told him that they usually stayed at the Beverley Hills Hotel in Umhlanga Rocks. He asked me to accompany him to Durban in order to introduce him to some of the cricketers and he especially wanted to be introduced to the captain, Mr Hansie Cronjé.

8.11 I told him that I had a very good relationship with Mr Cronjé but was not able to go to Durban that evening as I had family commitments.

8.12 I took Sanjay to the airport and he left for Durban that evening.

8.13 He phoned me from Durban and told me that he was staying at the same hotel as the South African cricket players.

8.14 It was eventually arranged that I would fly to Durban the following day and meet him at the Beverley Hills Hotel. I flew to Durban and thereafter met Sanjay at the Beverley Hills Hotel. Sanjay told me he in particular wanted to meet the captain of the South African cricket team, Hansie Cronjé.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim before you read any further into the statement, when you spoke to Sanjay when he was in your company you told the Commission, as you've set out in your statement, that you gained the distinct impression that besides the actual game of cricket itself he was a man who was interested in betting on the outcome of cricket games, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Now when he told you that he wanted to be introduced to, in particular, the captain of the South African team, Mr Cronjé, did any alarm bells ring? Did you think anything was wrong with this especially in view of the fact that he told you that he was interested in gambling so-to-speak in respect of the game of cricket?

MR CASSIM: No alarm bells rang at that point of time.

MR WITZ: Is it correct that you eventually landed up at the Beverley Hills Hotel in Umhlanga Rocks and you eventually met with Mr Sanjay and Mr Cronjé? As I understand the position Mr Cronjé came to Sanjay's room after you had phoned him to come to the room.

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Now in respect of your airfare to Durban and return, because it's common cause that you returned back to Johannesburg that same evening, who paid for your airfare?

MR CASSIM: I paid for my airfare via my credit card, and Sanjay reimbursed me.

MR WITZ: Did he give you the money in cash in order to put back into your credit card to cover the cost of the aeroplane ticket?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: You made various phone calls, as I understand from the list that's been supplied, and also what you've told the Commission, to Mr Cronjé when you got to Durban, and as I understand the position he told you that they were practising at the nets at Kingsmead and he would see you later that afternoon, half past five, six, when they came back from training. Is that what happened?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Now I'd like you to very, very briefly in this regard, just tell the Commissioner how this came about, this meeting between the captain of the South African cricket team, Mr Hansie Cronjé, and Sanjay. How did this happen? And what happened there in Durban that you yourself witnessed?

MR CASSIM: Mr Cronjé agreed to this and came down to Sanjay's room where I introduced him to Sanjay. In Sanjay's room I had previously been watching a provincial game of cricket which was being shown on the television. Sanjay wanted to meet Hansie, which I said I will arrange and they were talking about cricket generally. I never actually, it never bothered me what they were talking about, because there was a cricket match on and they were talking of scores, match forecasting and that and so forth.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim I think this is of some importance to the Commission. I would like you to deal in particular with paragraph 8.18. What did you ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I am missing page 14 of the statement. Can somebody supply me with a copy please?

MR WITZ: Sorry Mr Commissioner I gave it to Adv Batohi, I think they've misplaced it. If they can hand it up to you. They made some copies. Mr Commissioner it should read page 14 and it should start at the top paragraph 8.17, that is the page, and I think it's probably the most important page of the statement, or one of the most important pages.

COMMISSIONER: I knew that, that's why I asked for it Mr Witz. Carry on.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim, dealing in particular with the contents of page 14, I'd like you to tell the Court very, very briefly in your own words, you were watching this provincial game. At your request Mr Cronjé came to Sanjay's room, which was in the Umhlanga Rocks, the Beverley Hills Hotel, what transpired there? What were they discussing and what took place that you yourself heard and saw, if you can tell the Commissioner please?

MR CASSIM: What I heard that day and what transpired was they were talking about cricket regarding scores, pitches, players. I wasn't very much interested because after I introduced Sanjay to Hansie ag I thought they were just discussing a few things and Hansie was telling him about how the pitches are here in South Africa, and what the size of the grounds, how big it is, and what scores they probably can get and that.

MR WITZ: And as I understand further from you what you set out in paragraph 8.18, they spoke in essence, between the two of them, about match forecasting, pitch conditions and also team selection and conditions upon who won the toss. In other words who batted first and who batted second. And I think this related in particular, as I understand from you in regard to the One-day games, that this was of more importance. Would that be correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: And you told the Commissioner that they were also discussing the number of runs in the One-day games and you also heard them talking about team selection; who would be batting; which order; and who would be bowling. And this related in particular to the One-day games. Would that be correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: After this initial meeting you expressed the position that in regards to your own personal position you couldn't stay the evening in Durban, that you'd have to go back to Johannesburg, and on leaving, as I understand the position, Sanjay gave you his phone numbers and told you that whenever you came to London if and when you could be his guest and he would reciprocate with the same hospitality that you had shown him. You don't have to read his numbers into the record. They are before the Commission. Is that what happened?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: I'd like you to tell the Commission in regard to this conversation that took place between Mr Cronjé and Sanjay in the room, what did you yourself see in regard to certain monies that were handed by Sanjay to Mr Cronjé, what did you see take place in that room?

MR CASSIM: What I saw what took place in that room was Sanjay took an envelope out and gave it - he took it out from his safe and he gave it to Mr Cronjé. When he gave Mr Cronjé that envelope Mr Cronjé took that envelope and, I must be very, very honest, I was surprised that Mr Cronjé took this envelope. And he said "keep this and I will talk to you at a later stage".

MR WITZ: Now when you talk about the safe, are these what they call the mini-safes that you find in most of the better establishments, better hotels, those mini-safes where people keep their valuables in their own room? Is that the type of safe you are talking about?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: It's common cause, as I understand the position, you thereafter left. You went back to the Durban Airport and you caught a plane back to Johannesburg. Is that what happened in regard to your own position? You didn't stay over in Durban?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Now after the One-day internationals were finished and the cricket series were over, the Triangular tournament was finished, did you at any stage keep up any telephonic conversations with Sanjay in respect of your relationship and what had happened that particular day?

MR CASSIM: No, well what happened that particular day I never kept any conversations with Sanjay, but he used to phone me on a regular basis.

MR WITZ: And when he phoned you, and we have been given in particular a list, and it also appears from the diagram, some 29, 30 calls if not more, that he made to your mobile number, which you don't have to read into the record, what was the nature of these conversations that he had with you? What were these conversations about? What did he want from you, Sanjay, when he phoned you?

MR CASSIM: Those sort of times when Sanjay used to call me if he couldn't get hold of Hansie he would ask me, please can you phone Hansie and ask him to - I would like to get in touch with him or if he could get in touch with me.

MR WITZ: And in response to this request from him what did you yourself do? Did you phone Mr Cronjé? Did you contact him telephonically?

MR CASSIM: There were times I would call Mr Cronjé and there were times I just wouldn't call him because you know I mean I used to get fed-up with Sanjay phoning me all the time and we had to get hold of Mr Cronjé.

MR WITZ: But it's clear that in view of what you have told myself as well as Adv Batohi, and especially in view of certain phone calls that were made, you did eventually make some contact with Sanjay, and you also made contact with Mr Cronjé in regard to these requests, these incessant requests from Sanjay, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Now shortly after the One-day international and the Triangular Series here in South Africa, the South African cricket team left to go and play the test match series and a series of One-day internationals in India, and you had further telephonic communication from Sanjay. I'd like you to just tell the Commissioner what this was about and on which occasion this occurred, and in particular if you can deal with paragraph 8.23 of your statement before you and just elaborate to the Commissioner.

MR CASSIM: I thereafter received a phone call from Sanjay when South Africa were playing in India and he informed me that he was now in India where he had gone to watch the test series between South Africa and India.

I recall that he told me that he was staying at the same hotel as the South African players when the first One-day match against India was being played at Cochin.

Sanjay would call me from there and says, please I need to speak to Hansie, can you phone Hansie, he's not answering the phone. I would phone Hansie. Sometimes I would get through, sometimes I wouldn't get through because Sanjay wanted to speak to him.

MR WITZ: Now when you say that you phoned, and you refer to Hansie, Mr Cronjé, where did you phone him? Did you phone him at the hotel? Did you phone him on the hotel phone? Where did these conversations take place between you and what language in particular did you speak to Mr Cronjé when you made these telephone calls?

MR CASSIM: I would contact Mr Cronjé on the hotel phones and I would speak in Afrikaans.

MR WITZ: And Mr Cassim if you can just give the Commissioner some rough idea, obviously I don't expect you to remember each and every phone call that was made, more-or-less what time, and I am talking about time in India which would obviously have been different to the South African time, up to more-or-less what time would you phone Mr Cronjé when you made contact with him to tell him, for example, that Sanjay is looking for him?

MR CASSIM: If my memory serves me correct India time round about 10:30, 11:00 was the last you could get a call through to Mr Cronjé.

MR WITZ: Mr Commissioner possibly this would be a convenient time to take the tea adjournment. I see I have gone slightly over.

COMMISSIONER: We will adjourn for 15 minutes, approximately.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS AT 11H13

 

 

ON RESUMPTION AT 11H37

COMMISSIONER: Mr Witz.

HAMID CASSIM: (s.u.o.)

EXAMINATION BY MR WITZ: (cont)

Thank you Mr Commissioner. Mr Cassim just before the tea adjournment we were dealing with certain aspects relating to what happened between Mr Cronjé as well as Sanjay in the hotel room, and your further telephonic discussions with Sanjay.

What I would like to just establish from you, the recent series that was held in India between South Africa and India, did you physically attend any of those matches? Did you go to India at all?

MR CASSIM: No, not at all.

MR WITZ: There has also been evidence led in this Commission relating to what is commonly called "the Sharjah Cup" in Dubai, which was also held this year. You yourself, did you at any stage attend that game?

MR CASSIM: No.

MR WITZ: Did you speak to Mr Cronjé when he was in Dubai during the playing of the Sharjah cup and if so tell the Commissioner in what connection these phone calls were made, please?

MR CASSIM: I spoke to Mr Cronjé a couple of times while he was in Dubai. I had a few friends who were going down to - who told me they were going down to watch the Sharjah Cup and if I could arrange a few tickets for them, and I contacted Hansie if he could give me a few tickets for the match.

MR WITZ: And in regard to the games, if I can go back one step, the games that were played in India, did you ever speak to any of the South African players, in particular relating to the question of tickets? Who requested tickets and who did you speak to to arrange tickets and for whom, please?

MR CASSIM: I spoke to Lance Klusener, I spoke to Hansie. Regarding Lance Klusener I needed tickets for the actress, Amisha Patel. She and her brother wanted to go and watch the One-day, it was a test match I think in Bombay that they needed tickets for and I arranged tickets with Lance Klusener.

MR WITZ: That's the very attractive young lady of whom you have a picture with, when she was here in South Africa, is that the same person?

MR CASSIM: Yes....

MR WITZ: Now just tell the Commissioner what is the secret, if there is any secret about speaking to a player in order to get tickets, why can't your friends or associates or people just go to the normal computicket or go to the normal ground and purchase a ticket? What type of tickets do you get from the player? What is the attraction of the tickets, if you can just tell us please?

MR CASSIM: The tickets you get from the players are under cover and it's in the grandstand, it's a very good ticket and it's very difficult to get tickets for the One-day matches so the players always have spare tickets, and knowing that I have the contact with the players a lot of my friends will come to me and say, "Banjo, please organise us tickets". And something I've learnt today is to say "no".

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim in regard to these tickets. You make the people aware your friends, associates, these actresses etc who actually the ticket is coming from that it's actually coming from a South African test player or an international player or would he just give it to them as a ticket? What do you tell them?

MR CASSIM: I would tell them from which player it comes from.

MR WITZ: Now I'd like to just turn to page 16 of your statement, which you have before you, and if we can just deal with paragraph 8.26. These are phone calls that you received from Sanjay asking you to contact Mr Cronjé. What did it appear to you, you were talking to both parties, what was the problem between Sanjay and Mr Cronjé? I understand this was at the time that the test match series and the One-day internationals....

MR CASSIM: He said "please get hold of Hansie. I need to speak to him". And it appeared to me that Sanjay was betting on the matches and he needed Hansie to assist him regarding forecasting and that.

MR WITZ: Is that the impression that you were placed under, that that was going on between the two of them?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Now I'd like you to tell the Commissioner, what affect has this had on you, how do you now feel, especially in view of the, at times adverse publicity, that you introduced the gambler or punter, Sanjay, to the captain of the South African cricket team, and you now obviously, with hindsight, are aware that certain dealings went on between them? It is common cause he admitted that he took money from him and obviously there were further dealings, how has this affected you and how do you now feel?

MR CASSIM: It has affected me to a great extent, but nevertheless from a - a lot of the South African players have called me, they've given a lot of support to me, and in particular Herschelle Gibbs told me, "Hamid be strong. We know what type of a character you are". And to be honest it has affected me and I would love to still have that relationship and I will maintain a relationship with the players that I had.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cassim the next aspect that hopefully we can put to rest, there's been suggestions, I think possibly from media speculation, I am not sure where it comes from or which source it comes from, suggestions that you are a betting man, either you are a bookmaker or a betting man. Just tell the Commissioner what is the position in regards to either being a bookmaker or a betting man or having any connections with such sources.

MR CASSIM: I want to make this clear to everybody. I am not a bookmaker, I have never placed a bet on a cricket match or any sporting activities. The last time I placed a bet was in 1976 and I got a hiding for that.

MR WITZ: Tell us what was that bet, was that on a sporting event, was it on a horse race, what was that bet about and what happened there, briefly please?

MR CASSIM: It was a horse race. I think it was Politician that was running and we had a food stall and this chap came to me and says, "let's take a bet" and I stole R50 from my brother and I placed the bet. And my brother came to find out and since then I have never ever placed a bet on a horse race or any sports matches in my entire life.

COMMISSIONER: Was it a winning bet?

MR CASSIM: Yes it was a winning bet, Politician won that race.

MR WITZ: Well that's normally where it starts, unfortunately if the first bet is a winning bet. But in any event what I'd like to just establish from you, I would like to just go back to the conversations that you had with Mr Cronjé and Sanjay in the room and either the telephonic conversations. Did it ever appear to you that in any way Mr Cronjé was trying to contrive a result, he was trying to fix a match? What was the

impression that you were put under?

MR CASSIM: It appeared me that that never appeared to me that Mr Cronjé wanted to fix a match.

MR WITZ: In all your dealings and conversations, telephonically or face-to-face with Mr Cronjé, did it ever come across to you that he was speaking to other South African players in order not to perform to their abilities or in order not to do their best in any international series, One-day or test matches?

MR CASSIM: No.

MR WITZ: Now you yourself, from your own point of view, Mr Cassim, did you ever induce or encourage Mr Cronjé, or for that matter any other cricket player, local or international, to do anything that would be detrimental to the game of cricket or bring it into disrepute as far as you know the position?

MR CASSIM: No.

MR WITZ: It's also correct as per the correspondence that I read into the record from your attorney Mr Blumberg, that you contact the United Cricket Board already on the 13th of April and you offered them your full cooperation and assistance, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Now just tell the Commissioner that you yourself personally, as you are sitting there today, have you ever had any dealings previously with the United Cricket Board, any incident that you can bring to mind, if you can assist the Commissioner please?

MR CASSIM: The only incident I had with the United Cricket Board, I think it was around about 1996 when India toured South Africa, I was standing outside the dressing room talking to Brian MacMillan's wife, Denise, and Denise wanted to get hold of Brian MacMillan so she said, "Hamid please see if you can call Brian for me". I used to call him "Big Mac". So I said okay, let me see if I can go inside. When I called Brian out of the dressing room, via the security chap there, Brian came out and there was a spectator standing right next to myself and Denise and he actually swore Brian. He said something very bad to Brian and I think if I wasn't standing there Brian would have half murdered that chap. Brian lifted him up and actually threw him against a vehicle, because he swore Brian's wife as well. And the UCB called me up for a hearing. That was the only confrontation I ever had with the UCB.

MR WITZ: Now what happened at this hearing? Was this an internal disciplinary hearing against Brian MacMillan or Big Mac as you referred to him?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: And did you have to give evidence at the United Cricket Board in relation to what you had heard, what had transpired and explain the position what happened between Mr MacMillan and this unruly or out of line spectator.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: What was the outcome, out of interest, as a result of the evidence that you gave, what did the United Cricket Board do in regard to this incident?

MR CASSIM: If my memory serves me correct I think Big Mac was fined.

MR WITZ: I'd like to just turn you to the last page of your statement before I deal with certain other aspects, this is page 17, and I'd like you to just read into the record, in particular the contents of paragraphs 13 and 14 just for record purposes.

MR CASSIM: Yes.

13 I have further undertaken via my legal representatives, Mr I W Blumberg and Advocate M Witz, to continue giving my full assistance and co-operation to the Commission.

14 I wish to reserve all my further rights in terms of the Constitution Act 108 of 1996 in regard to this statement including my rights to amend and/or amplify my statement if any further statements are made or received relating to the Commission of Inquiry against myself.

MR WITZ: Now besides the fact that you, from the very outset, have given your full cooperation and assistance and have undertaken to continue to do so, as I understand the position on legal advice from Mr Blumberg and myself, you requested that the last paragraph be put in, especially in view of late statements coming, documentation etc, and that was really the only reason why you put this in, to protect your Constitutional rights, is that correct Mr Cassim?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Now possibly the 64 million dollar question in this inquiry in relation to your evidence, if you can assist the Commissioner, what did you receive, if anything, other than the repayment of your airfare from Sanjay or Mr Cronjé, in regard to the introduction that you made of the term of them there in Durban at the Beverley in Umhlanga Rocks?

MR CASSIM: I received absolutely nothing from Sanjay. What happened to me is that I received a lot of liabilities and telephone calls that I had to make. I had to pay for all those and the liabilities I am having right now.

MR WITZ: Now Mr Cronjé has given evidence to this Commission and as I understand certain portions of his evidence in particular relating to his dealings with Sanjay, he told the Commission that he was putting up a charade, in other words he was playing a game with Sanjay. He got tired of him, he admitted that initially he took the first lot of money, that's in Durban, and then he continued this charade. He actually wasn't doing anything and he was just trying to make Sanjay feel as if he was speaking to players etc. You have heard that evidence?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Now from your own perspective and your own dealings with both Sanjay telephonically, physically when you met him for the first time, as well as your dealings with Mr Cronjé, what do you say to that evidence of Mr Cronjé that he was keeping up a game and making a charade with Sanjay? Did you ever get that impression from Mr Cronjé that that is in fact exactly what he was doing?

MR CASSIM: I think so.

MR WITZ: And leading on from this, it's clear from your very, very impressive phone list, which I think there's a short-head between yourself and Mr Aronstam, who makes more calls or receives more calls, what I'd like to just establish from you, you are obviously very, very friendly, and there's a lot of mutual respect between yourself as well as the other South African cricket players, would that be a correct statement if I put them in that format to you?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR WITZ: Are you able to tell the Commissioner from your own knowledge, this is your own personal knowledge, not what you might have heard from others, especially relating to some of the cricket players that are mentioned here in your phone calls, or for that matter any other cricket players, are you aware of any other South African cricket players that have in any way either not performed to their best ability in test matches, One-day internationals or in any way involved in what this Commission is trying to establish? You from your own point of view.

MR CASSIM: No.

MR WITZ: And then just finally Mr Cassim, dealing with this particular aspect, the relationship that you told the Commissioner that you've still got with present South African cricket players as well as other international players, you told the Commissioner that you are still maintaining this relationship and you've had calls of support in relation to this unfortunate incident that is now before the Commission. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Thank you Mr Commissioner. At this stage I have got no further questions for Mr Cassim.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WITZ

COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr Witz. Mr Fitzgerald.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FITZGERALD: Just very briefly Mr Commissioner.

Mr Cassim just to put the telephone calls into perspective, would it be fair to say that you would phone the players about tickets?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: About cricket memorabilia.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: You would phone them, I know Lance Klusener particular was, he's alleged to be the one most fond of your biltong, you would phone him about biltong supplies.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: You would have discussions with them about their acquisition from you of electronic equipment.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: And in some cases you would even just phone them for a chat.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: With some of the players, would it be fair to say that your friendship with them has extended over a number of years?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: There has been evidence from the players that, and I read in particular from the statement that was presented to the Commission from Lance Klusener, that he knows Cassim as someone who loves cricket, and quote - "hangs around the team on a regular basis in Johannesburg", would that be a fair description?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR FITZGERALD: The evidence from the players has been that you have never approached any of them about match-fixing, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR FITZGERALD: And you've never asked them to give you any information relating to the outcome of any particular match?

MR CASSIM: Never.

MR FITZGERALD: Mr Commissioner at this stage I have no further questions. Depending on what is elicited by any of my legal learned friends may I be given an opportunity then to cross-examine if necessary. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Manca.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANCA: Thank you Mr Commissioner.

Mr Cassim if I understand you correctly you say that you haven't received any monetary rewards in any form from Mr, can I call him Mr Chawla or you - from Mr Chawla in respect of your introduction of Mr Chawla to Mr Cronjé and any of Mr Chawla's subsequent dealings with Mr Cronjé, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Mr Chawla just paid for your aeroplane trip from Johannesburg to Durban and back.

MR CASSIM: I paid with my credit card and he reimbursed me.

MR MANCA: I am not going to ask you in this public open hearing to divulge the details, but I want to ask you whether, as a matter of principle, you will be prepared to tell Ms Batohi and her investigators the following:

Firstly, the details of any bank accounts that you may have in your personal name, would you be prepared to give them that information?

MR CASSIM: Correct, yes.

MR MANCA: Would you give them any information in regard to any companies or close corporations which you may or may not be a member of?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: And you would also then make such bank accounts of those companies or close corporations to the extent that you are able to do so, available to the Commission and its investigators?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: And similarly if you are a trustee or a beneficiary in respect of any trusts you would make similar information available to the Commission and its investigators.

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: Now Mr Cassim I understand you to say quite strongly to this Commission today that you are not a betting man, and the last time that you bet on a sporting event was a horse race in 1976.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Do I infer from that that you are not interested in any way whatsoever, in any sports betting?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: In fact your connection with cricketers and you've even testified in relation to your connection with overseas footballers is that you like to be associated with them and to be seen in their company, would that be correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Since 1976 you have never even thought about betting on a sports event, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: It never entered your head? Can you just repeat that. Since 1976 you have never thought about betting on a sports event and I think your answer, it didn't come through the microphone was, "it never entered my head".

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Could you then explain to the Commissioner why shortly after the Centurion Park test, on your admitted version, you suggested to Mr Cronjé that it was a pity he hadn't told you about the declaration because you could have made a lot of money?

MR CASSIM: I was merely joking with Mr Cronjé.

MR MANCA: So you were incorrect when you told me a moment ago that even thinking about betting on a sports even wouldn't have entered your head.

MR CASSIM: I think I was incorrect there.

MR MANCA: What were you thinking about when you asked him that question?

MR CASSIM: Actually nothing, I was just joking with Mr Cronjé. I was standing with Rino Desai there and when I told him that and he just said "kom praat" and I just left it there and then.

MR MANCA: Mr Cassim I am not going to cross-examine you at length, but I just want to put this proposition to you. I find it extremely strange that for a person who on his own version hasn't even thought about betting on a sports event since 1976 you would have suggested to the captain of the South African team, shortly after the Centurion Park test that it's a pity you hadn't told me about that, we could have made a lot of money. It seems to me that you are not really disclosing your interest in sports betting or your activities therein.

MR CASSIM: Let me have that question again please.

MR MANCA: The simple submission is that I don't think, having regard to your evidence that you were not interested in sports betting, that that is not consistent with the approach that you made to Mr Cronjé shortly after the Centurion Park test, and I am putting it to you that you are not disclosing to this Commission the full extent of your involvement in sports betting and your involvement with Mr Cronjé and for that matter in the other cricketer in regard to sports betting.

MR CASSIM: To the best of my knowledge I am disclosing my full information regarding betting to this Commission.

COMMISSIONER: You see Mr Cassim, in your statement, dealing with that particular comment, it's paragraph 7.9, you said to Cronjé, and then there's a quote -

"You should have told me about the declaration beforehand and I could have made some money".

And then you continue in your statement. You say -

"He replied to me in a joking manner, 'kom praat'".

You didn't tell me in this statement nor in your evidence initially that your comment was made in a joking manner. So I am a little concerned at your answer.

MR CASSIM: Mr Commissioner when I spoke to Hansie at that time I was just actually joking with him and said if I knew you are going to declare I would have made money.

COMMISSIONER: How does that thought even cross the mind of a man, jokingly or otherwise, who hasn't at that stage had a bet for what 25 years, and then only once?

MR CASSIM: I cannot really tell you how that crossed my mind Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Carry on Mr Manca.

MR MANCA: Mr Cassim now you have told the Commission that you were contacted by Mr Chawla and we know that Mr Chawla visited South Africa and he travelled to Durban, you subsequently travelled to Durban and you, Mr Cronjé and Mr Chawla had a meeting in a hotel room in Durban. That's all common cause, there is no dispute in regard to that.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Now you also testified that at your very first meeting with Mr Chawla he told you that he was a man who liked betting on cricket and your counsel asked you did any alarm bells start ringing at that stage and you said "no".

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Did Mr Chawla tell you why he wanted you to come to Durban?

MR CASSIM: No.

MR MANCA: Why did you travel to Durban then for just a day?

MR CASSIM: Well that's the day Mr Chawla told me he wanted to meet the South African players.

MR MANCA: So why did Mr Chawla want you to come to Durban?

MR CASSIM: To introduce him to Hansie Cronjé in particular.

MR MANCA: Did you discuss payment of the air ticket before you went to Durban?

MR CASSIM: Well he told me to come down. I bought the air ticket with my card and he reimbursed me when I was leaving Durban.

MR MANCA: So are you really saying that the only time you discussed the payment for the ticket was when you went back to Johannesburg?

MR CASSIM: Apparently the day he left for Durban he wanted me to go with him, he was going to pay for the ticket, due to family commitments, I've got two boys at home, I could not go with him.

MR MANCA: He could still have paid for the ticket if you were coming the next day.

MR CASSIM: He could have paid it but I paid it with my credit card and he reimbursed me.

MR MANCA: My question is, when was it discussed, the payment of the ticket?

MR CASSIM: The Sunday he was at my shop.

MR MANCA: So it was discussed before you left?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Alright. Now you get to Durban and you speak to Mr Cronjé and you in fact arrange for Mr Cronjé to meet Mr Chawla in the room.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: And if I understand your evidence you are not paying particular, too much interest in regard to the conversation, you are watching a cricket game that's on the TV, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: But you do hear snippets of the conversation?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: And the snippets of the conversation you hear relate to, as you term it, forecasting it, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Now what is that forecasting? Who was going to be forecasting and what was going to be forecast?

MR CASSIM: If my memory serves me correct Mr Cronjé and Sanjay were talking regarding - Sanjay was asking Hansie regarding the pitches, the scores that they would, the score and the team selection.

MR MANCA: So there was no talk of forecasting?

MR CASSIM: I don't know at that point of time were they talking of forecasting.

MR MANCA: You don't know or they weren't talking about forecasting?

MR CASSIM: I don't recall.

MR MANCA: You don't recall that they were talking about forecasting.

MR MANCA: I don't recall.

MR MANCA: So when you said in your statement at 8.18, on page 14 that they were talking about match forecasting that was an incorrect statement in that statement?

MR CASSIM: Which paragraph?

MR MANCA: 8.18 on page 14.

MR CASSIM: Well they were talking of pitch, they were talking of everything. I can't recall everything that they were talking of.

MR MANCA: They were talking about match forecasting, as you put it in your statement?

MR CASSIM: That's right.

MR MANCA: At that stage did any alarm bells start ringing?

MR CASSIM: Not really.

COMMISSIONER: What is meant by match forecasting, what is meant by that? Who is going to win and who is going to lose?

MR CASSIM: No I think match - they were discussing like what scores will go. If my memory serves me correct, the pitch. He was asking players that were going to play. I mean forecasting, I can't recall the forecasting part that's why I am just trying to think carefully. Well as far as I can remember it was not who was going to win and who is going to lose.

COMMISSIONER: Well then what is the forecasting, how many runs a team is going to make? How many runs a team is going to make? How many runs an individual is going to make? How many runs a bowler is going to give any in his ten overs?

MR CASSIM: I think how many runs the team was going to make.

MR MANCA: You say in your statement you also heard them discussing team selection and who would be batting in which order and who would be bowling. Do you see that in your statement?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: Was that in respect of the game which was going to be played the following day?

MR CASSIM: What was the following match?

MR MANCA: South Africa versus Zimbabwe at Kingsmead on the 2nd of February.

MR CASSIM: I can't recall.

MR MANCA: But whatever, whether you can or can't recall in relation to whether this was a conversation in respect of the match, once again I take it that there were no alarm bells ringing?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

COMMISSIONER: Forecasting how many runs the team is going to make that seems to me to be running very close to match-fixing, what would you think about that?

MR CASSIM: I have never been involved in betting so it was very difficult for me to think what was happening.

COMMISSIONER: What do you think now?

MR CASSIM: What I gather in all the information that's floating around there could have been possibly something happening between the two of them.

MR MANCA: Mr Cassim at some stage you say that you saw, you actually saw Mr Chawla take an envelope out of the safe in his hotel room, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: And he gave that envelope to Mr Cronjé, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: I take it when he took the envelope out of the safe it was closed, it was a sealed envelope?

MR CASSIM: What I saw, well I think - it was a sealed envelope, that's right.

MR MANCA: A sealed envelope that he gave to Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: If it was a sealed envelope which he took out of the safe and gave to Mr Cronjé can you explain to me how you are able to say in paragraph 8.19 of your statement that -

"I saw Sanjay take an envelope containing money and hand it to Mr Cronjé",

because you will agree with me that if the envelope was sealed you wouldn't know that there was any money in there.

MR CASSIM: Alright, but in common knowledge I am sure, if he took it out of the safe it must have contained dollars then.

MR MANCA: So now we know that you know that not only did he take an envelope out of the safe which was sealed, it not only contained money but you have got x-ray vision so good that you can see that it contains US dollars.

MR CASSIM: From the information I gathered in the newspapers that Hansie said what it was.

MR MANCA: Mr Cassim I am not cross-examining you on what information you may or may not have gained in the newspapers. I am cross-examining you on the basis of the statement that you compiled together with your legal representatives wherein you make, and forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you say the following:

"I then saw Sanjay take an envelope containing money and hand it to Mr Cronjé".

Now you didn't say in the statement that "I saw him hand an envelope and in regard to what I've read in the newspapers and seen floating around, it must have contained money. " It's a very short sentence, it's a very simple sentence. It says,

"I saw him hand an envelope containing money".

How did you know there was money in the envelope?

MR CASSIM: I just presumed it was money.

MR MANCA: Why should you presume it was money? What led you to that presumption?

MR CASSIM: When Sanjay told him -" keep this and we'll talk further."

MR MANCA: Okay, so on the basis of that you made a presumption?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: You made an assumption. At that stage did the alarm bells start ringing?

MR CASSIM: Well at that stage still I just thought "well..." I was still shocked when Hansie took the money and I said, "well this Sanjay must have given to Hansie for future references".

COMMISSIONER: What worries me a little bit Mr Cassim is the fact that Sanjay and Cronjé who were busy with this particular deal even allowed you to remain in the room. It suggests to me that they appreciated that you must have known what was going on. So there was no need for secrecy.

MR CASSIM: I suppose that's correct, yes.

MR MANCA: Just to get back to my question, did or did not the alarm bells start ringing?

MR CASSIM: Well probably, I mean when I saw what had happened maybe the bells still didn't ring to me.

MR MANCA: Yes because I mean in fact if one looks at your statement and your evidence it's quite probable that on your version no alarm bells started ringing because you continued to have contact with Sanjay. I mean the next bit of your statement is you told Sanjay that you'll not be able to stay over in Durban for the One-day international as you had other commitments and you go back to Johannesburg. I mean you didn't suggest to him that it was shocking what you had seen happen in that hotel room, you were quite comfortable with it. You went back to Johannesburg.

MR CASSIM: Yes I went back to Johannesburg and I carried on with my business.

COMMISSIONER: You also carried on with your contacts with Sanjay.

MR CASSIM: Sanjay used to call me most of the times.

MR MANCA: Yes and at paragraph 8.22 of your statement on page 15, you say that -

"After the cricket series was over Sanjay left for London and we kept up telephonic contact on occasions".

that's yourself and Sanjay.

"And Sanjay thanked me for introducing him to Mr Cronjé".

You didn't take him to task for this money that he'd handed over or anything that had transpired in that hotel room on that day. You never expressed shock, horror or surprise, did you?

MR CASSIM: No.

MR MANCA: And then you go on to state at paragraph 8.24 of your statement, now this is - let me ask you, before we go on to 8.24, Mr Sanjay arrived and went to Durban and that was on the - it seems to be on the eve of the One-day international between South Africa and Zimbabwe, we are talking about the 1st of February I think, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: It is.

MR MANCA: Do you perhaps know, the next thing is you say at 8.22 -

"After the cricket series was over..."

are you referring there to the series between South Africa, Zimbabwe and England in South Africa?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: So Mr Chawla, Sanjay Chawla, remained in South Africa until the end of that series?

MR CASSIM: .... think so.

MR MANCA: But it's going to be a long time if - you don't think so. Well what's correct 8.22 of your statement or the thoughts that you are having now?

MR CASSIM: Sanjay left three or four days after the One-day matches.

COMMISSIONER: Sorry Mr Manca. How do you know, did you have contact with Sanjay after that particular day while he was still in South Africa?

MR CASSIM: Sanjay stayed over in Durban and he left from Durban to London.

COMMISSIONER: How do you know that, that's my question.

MR CASSIM: I think if I can recall clearly, before he left he called.

COMMISSIONER: Carry on Mr Manca.

MR MANCA: Alright so when you said at 8.22 of your statement,

"...after the cricket series was over..."

do I understand you to say that once again that that was an assumption that you made on your part.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Alright so at this stage the contact that you had with Mr Sanjay is he's phoned you, he come to South Africa, you've joined him in Durban, you meet with him in the hotel room with Mr Cronjé and he's phoned you a few times after that, is that right?

MR CASSIM: That's right.

MR MANCA: Then you say that you received a phone call from Mr Sanjay when South Africa were playing in India.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: You say that you recall that he told you he was staying at the same hotel as the South African players when the first test match against India was being played at Cochin. That's what you say in your statement.

COMMISSIONER: It's been corrected Mr Manca. My copy here is to read "when the first One-day international against India was played at Cochin".

MR MANCA: Yes. Thank you Mr Commissioner. So he hadn't phoned you before then had he?

MR CASSIM: Sorry come again with that.

MR MANCA: Okay let me just bluntly put it to you, there were two test matches which took place before the One-day series. The One-day series started at the conclusion of the end of the two test matches and the first one day game was played at Cochin. Is that when you had the first telephone call from Mr Sanjay Chawla to you when the South African team was in India?

MR CASSIM: I don't remember when he called me first but I think when he called me to say that he was staying at Cochin I do remember that one.

MR MANCA: Alright, can you recall why he phoned you when he said he was staying in a hotel in Cochin?

MR CASSIM: He told me he was going to watch the matches.

MR MANCA: I see. Now just take some time to think about it if you need to. You have a definite recollection of him phoning you from a hotel in Cochin. Is that also according to your recollection the first time that he phoned you when you were in India? This is Sanjay. Sorry when the South African team were in India not when you were in India, sorry.

MR CASSIM: I think he went to watch those test matches as well in India. He probably could have called me from the venues in India.

MR MANCA: So you concede that Mr Chawla could have called you during the test matches as well which was before the first One-day international in Cochin?

MR CASSIM: Possibly.

MR MANCA: Now you said that he phoned you from Cochin to talk to you about the game?

MR CASSIM: No, not about the game.

MR MANCA: About what?

MR CASSIM: Whenever Sanjay would call me is that he couldn't get hold of Hansie he said please I would like to speak Hansie if you can get hold of him.

MR MANCA: So when was staying in the hotel in Cochin he called you to get hold of Mr Cronjé, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Did you know that Sanjay Chawla stayed in the same hotel in Cochin as the South African team?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: And yet he's phoning you in South Africa to get hold of Mr Cronjé when they're in the same hotel in India.

MR CASSIM: Possibly he did not want to go to Mr Cronjé's room, I can't answer for Sanjay.

MR MANCA: How many times can you recall did Mr Sanjay phone you when the South African team was in India for you to get hold of Hansie, in order to ask Mr Cronjé to contact Sanjay?

MR CASSIM: My assumption could be twenty to thirty times.

MR MANCA: Twenty to thirty times Sanjay contacted you in order to get hold of Mr Cronjé.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Do you want to show me that bit in your statement where you say that Sanjay contacted you twenty or thirty times to get hold of Mr Cronjé. You maybe just look at your statement. It's not there is it?

COMMISSIONER: Look at 8.26.

MR CASSIM: Do you want to maybe read paragraph 8.26 of your statement.

COMMISSIONER: ...you read Mr Cassim that your version may not perhaps be the corrected one, let me just read the first line to you Mr Manca,

"I have did however receive..."

and then the article A is crossed out, "phone calls", plural, from Sanjay. It doesn't detract from your question but I want you to have the right factual basis for it,

MR MANCA: No Mr Commissioner, I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill but the difficulty that I have is I don't just have a statement, I've got a copy of a signed affidavit and my affidavit is signed on the 6th of June before a Commissioner of Oaths in Johannesburg and 8.26 of my affidavit says the following,

"I did however receive a phone call from Sanjay."

May I ask when a copy of your affidavit was deposed to?

COMMISSIONER: You may and if somebody will furnish me with the last page I will be able to answer you. Can I just have a - page 17 of this original was here, then when this was removed in order to attach page 14, page 17 disappeared. I didn't raise it previously because it was read out to me and it didn't until this moment contain anything that I felt was particularly of relevance.

MS BATOHI: We do have page 17 but it's a copy, it's not the original.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Manca, this copy purports to have been signed on the 6th of June, Commissioner of Oaths a Mr Moodley an attorney, 2nd floor something or other Business Centre, West Tower Sandton Square.

MR MANCA: The same as my copy, and my learned friend Fitzgerald's. May I ask, if I may just through you Mr Commissioner ask if at paragraph 8.26 if there's anything approximating what would look like initials either by the witness or by the Commissioner of Oaths.

COMMISSIONER: Yes there's an initial which looks to me like Mr Cassim's initial against the alterations but not the Commissioner of Oaths, as far as I can make out.

MR MANCA: Thank you Mr...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: You can be cross-examined on that basis.

MS BATOHI: Mr Commissioner perhaps this might assist, I have two. One is exactly the same as Mr Manca's, that is a phone call and it is not amended and I have another page where it has been amended and initialled on the side which my junior has just handed to me.

COMMISSIONER: That's initialled apparently by the deponent.

MS BATOHI: Yes, not the Commissioner of Oaths I think, it's just the deponent, I'm not sure perhaps Mr Cassim can help us on that.

MR WITZ: Sorry to interrupt, Mr Commissioner you'll see there's another alteration at 8.23 where it was changed from first test match to first One-day international. There are one or two minor alterations which were signed by this witness that is presently getting evidence but not by the Commissioner of Oaths and we gave the original which has been changed, he's copy been changed and I suppose possibly it should have been brought to Mr Manca's attention. But I've got not objection, he can deal with it in cross-examination just to set the record straight. Thank you Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Carry on Mr Manca. Mr Manca's question to you was that he's expressed in his tone of voice some surprise that you had made something like twenty to thirty calls whereas your affidavit, or statement, it's an affidavit really in it's original form talked about a phone call, am I right?

MR MANCA: Yes Mr Commissioner. Mr Cassim am I correct were you in Cape Town on Friday or not?

MR CASSIM: Friday that's gone past?

MR MANCA: Yes this last Friday.

MR CASSIM: Yes I was in Cape Town, I was the whole week in Cape Town by the way.

MR MANCA: And now this change to your statement, was it done on Friday afternoon or over the weekend?

MR CASSIM: The change was done over the weekend.

MR MANCA: In other words just for the record Mr Commissioner it was changed subsequent to me cross-examining, as you will recall Mr Cronjé on the contents of this particular statement, Mr Commissioner you will recall that I read portions of Mr Cronjé's statement to him in relation to Mr Cassim's involvement as well as the statement and Mr Cronjé preferred his own version. So I'm just placing on record that that change - Alright Mr Cassim we'll carry on. How did the change come about, how did it come about that you decided to change the portion of your statement?

MR CASSIM: Sorry when I read my statement again, however when I saw I did receive a phone call, however it was not just a phone call it was phone calls and I'm sure there must have been an error there.

MR MANCA: You stand by what you said in paragraph 8.24 of your statement. Perhaps I'll read you mine because I don't know if yours will be changed. Mine says -

"I wish to state...."

have you got paragraph 8.24?

"I wish to state further that save for the discussion at the Beverley Hills Hotel in Sanjay's room between himself and Mr Cronjé, I had no further meetings or any telephonic discussions with Mr Cronjé relating to what had transpired that day at the Beverley Hills Hotel".

is that what your statement says?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: Now would you explain to me what you mean by when you say -

"I had no meetings or telephonic discussions with Mr Cronjé."

now you say and this is what I'm intrigued to know exactly what you're referring to -

"...relating to what had transpired that day at the Beverley Hills Hotel room".

What had transpired that day at the Beverley Hills Hotel room? In your own words please Mr Cassim.

MR CASSIM: What had transpired during that day was what Sanjay and Hansie, the conversation they had and I never, ever questioned Hansie about that day again.

MR MANCA: I know I'm traversing stuff that I've already traversed with you but I wanted you to explain to me in simple terms what you meant by what had transpired. Now you've related it to the conversation, I want to know the contents of the conversation.

MR CASSIM: The contents of the conversation as you are aware was the betting, the forecasting, the pitch reports, the selection of the teams and that.

MR MANCA: Why were you anxious in this statement to put some distance between yourself and Mr Cronjé and Mr Sanjay as to what happened in that hotel room? Why were you anxious to do that, because that's what you seem to be doing to me?

MR CASSIM: I was not anxious to do that.

MR MANCA: Why are you putting distance between yourself on the one hand and Mr Cronjé and Mr Sanjay on the other hand as to what happened in that hotel room? Why are you placing some distance between yourself and him?

MR CASSIM: It's now that I've realised what Hansie and Sanjay was up to, that I realised that what they were doing, I was not even aware of it.

MR MANCA: So when you on your own version saw money change hands you weren't aware of what was going on?

MR CASSIM: Not at that point of time that I told you earlier.

MR MANCA: Do you really expect me to believe that?

MR CASSIM: I expect you to believe that.

MR MANCA: But at the time of course you didn't think there was anything wrong so at the time you would have had as much contact as possible with Mr Sanjay and Mr Cronjé in relation to what had transpired in the hotel room.

MR CASSIM: No I did not.

MR MANCA: Listen to the question. I'm not asking you whether you had contact with them, I'm asking you whether or not you would agree with me that because at the time you didn't think there was anything wrong, you just told me that, if you didn't think there was anything wrong, you would have no reason to, in the first instance, not cooperate with Sanjay in any way whatsoever that he might have required you to do, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Can you rephrase that question please?

MR MANCA: You say that in the hotel room you heard talk of exchanges in relation to pitch conditions, exchange of teams, forecasting was mentioned, you said that.

MR CASSIM: That's right.

MR MANCA: And you say you saw money change hands, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: But you also say at the time you didn't think there was anything wrong in what had transpired.

MR CASSIM: Anything wrong in what had transpired regarding what?

MR MANCA: What had transpired between yourself and between Mr Sanjay and Mr Cronjé in that hotel room, you didn't see anything wrong in that, you told me no alarm bells went off.

MR CASSIM: When Mr Cronjé took the money I was shocked.

MR MANCA: That doesn't ring true with your own evidence that you gave me a moment ago that no alarm bells went off.

MR CASSIM: In the first instance no alarm bells went off.

MR MANCA: If Mr Sanjay, let me put it to you differently, if Mr Sanjay had contacted you after that meeting and had telephone calls with you and had asked you to get in contact with Mr Cronjé in relation to information that Mr Sanjay wanted on cricket matches, you would have assisted Mr Sanjay because you didn't think there was anything wrong at that time.

MR CASSIM: No I will never have assisted Mr Sanjay because what Mr Sanjay and Hansie did up until today I still don't know.

MR MANCA: But we know that you did assist Mr Sanjay.

MR CASSIM: Introduced him to Mr Cronjé yes, not anything further.

MR MANCA: Nothing further?

MR CASSIM: Nothing.

MR MANCA: What about the twenty to thirty telephone calls that you received from Mr Sanjay asking you to get hold of Mr Cronjé whilst he was in India?

MR CASSIM: That he only wanted to speak to him.

MR MANCA: No Mr Cassim, I'm not going to play games and I'm going to carry on endlessly, - you understand English.

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: That's clearly assisting Mr Sanjay is it not?

MR WITZ: Sorry Mr Commissioner if I can just interrupt. Those phone calls were made in South Africa not in India if you look at the phone list, if my learned friend can just look at his phone lists.

COMMISSIONER: I understand that they were made by Sanjay in India to Cassim in Cape Town asking Cassim in Cape Town to contact Cronjé in India, not only in India but at the same hotel, to tell him please to go and see or telefax Sanjay. So they emanated from India.

MR WITZ: No Mr Commissioner they emanate from London, it's a London telephone number that's phoning a mobile phone number in South Africa of Mr Cassim. Those are the 29 calls referred to. If my learned friend takes the trouble to look at the dates he will see that those dates are when the One-day international with South Africa were on, not the India series.

MS BATOHI: Perhaps I can just clarify that Mr Commissioner. It is so that the calls that we have on the detailed billing are calls that were made in South Africa, but the testimony of the witness is that he had received twenty to thirty calls at a later stage when Sanjay was back in London.

COMMISSIONER: Sanjay and Cronjé were not staying at the same hotel at the time, that's as I understand it from Mr Witz.

MS BATOHI: Perhaps we'll have to just check the record to see whether the witness will perhaps remember, he said the calls were made either from India or London but those calls are not reflected on the detailed billing, these are calls only in South Africa.

COMMISSIONER: I don't understand Mr Cassim that you disputed Mr Manca's proposition when he put it to you that the calls were made by Sanjay from the hotel in India where both he and Cronjé were staying at the time and that they were routed so to speak via you in Johannesburg. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR WITZ: Sorry Mr Commissioner, I don't want to labour the point but the list that we had been given, it's a London telephone number, that is the telephone that was used. It's made and the dates are there, it's from the 29th of January up until the 1st of February inclusive, they were all made to a mobile number belonging to Mr Cassim, so it could never have been made from India because the telephone is set out from where the calls are made to the mobile number, that's what the modern technology has captured and given to the investigators. We gave them the numbers. You will see that number, the 449, I won't read out the rest, that's a London number, it's not an Indian number.

MR MANCA: Mr Commissioner I'm pursuing my line of cross- examination in relation to the testimony that has been given by the witness both in his affidavit and what he's told you in evidence in chief and in my cross examination, I haven't related any of my questions in relation to the cellphone charts that have been provided and I haven't really suggested, other than the time that I referred to the Cochin incident, I really don't know where Mr Sanjay is now. I'll rephrase the questions and we'll start again.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, carry on Mr Manca.

MR MANCA: When the South Africa team was on its tour of India earlier this year, did you receive telephone calls from Sanjay Chawla asking you to contact Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: Did that happen once or as you now say twenty to thirty times?

MR CASSIM: Of course it happened on numerous occasions.

MR MANCA: Definitely more than once?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: Quite often but you can't recall how many times?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: And the purpose of those conversations was in order for you to contact Mr Cronjé and ask him to get in contact with Mr Sanjay Chawla, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: No. Mr Sanjay Chawla would want to get into contact with Mr Cronjé.

MR MANCA: Alright. I don't really know what I said is different, but the purpose of those telephone calls by you then to Mr Cronjé was to suggest to Mr Cronjé that Mr Chawla wanted to get in contact with him, how it was going to happen I don't really know.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: In doing that you were assisting Mr Chawla.

MR CASSIM: Just to get in contact with Mr Cronjé.

MR MANCA: Were you or were you not assisting Mr Chawla?

MR CASSIM: In which way was I assisting Mr Chawla?

MR MANCA: I haven't asked you in which way you were assisting Mr Chawla, I have asked you whether you were assisting Mr Chawla, yes or no?

MR CASSIM: I told you I have assisted Mr Chawla in getting into contact with Mr Cronjé.

MR MANCA: Thank you. And in fact you did that on a number of occasions on your version?

MR CASSIM: As I told you.

MR MANCA: So when Mr Cronjé says in his affidavit in his statement at paragraph 44 and I'll read it to you because I don't have a copy for you at this stage, Mr Cronjé says -

"I initially had no intention of involving other players. I thought I could satisfy Sanjay by forecasting outcomes, Sanjay was not satisfied".

And then he says, Mr Cronjé says -

"In the build-up to the tests..."

is what Mr Cronjé says,

"...the pressure on me increased. I received calls on a regular basis from Hamid and Sanjay".

Mr Cronjé is correct is he?

MR CASSIM: Just read that again please.

MR MANCA: "In the build-up to the tests..."

so says Mr Cronjé

"...the pressure on him increased. I received calls on a regular basis from Hamid and Sanjay. "

Mr Cronjé is correct?

MR CASSIM: Cronjé is correct, yes.

MR MANCA: Now Mr Cronjé goes on in his statement to say that he had given certain information to Mr Sanjay Chawla in relation to the One-day international, the first One-day international at Cochin(?) the import of what Mr Cronjé says is that Mr Chawla was angry with that and he says that when he got back to the hotel Sanjay was upset because we had scored too many runs and I blamed the Indian wicket keeper. That's at paragraph 50 of his statement. Then Mr Cronjé says the following.

MR WITZ: Mr Commissioner, I'm sorry to interrupt my learned friend unnecessarily. I'd prefer it if a copy of what he's putting to the witness could be placed in front of the witness. We don't have a copy of this statement. Possibly we could take a short adjournment and he could place a copy, give the witness an adequate opportunity of dealing with the questions because he's reading bits and pieces, heads and tails. If he can rather put the whole document that he intends cross-examining. I've got no objection if he cross-examines on it but if he could put it in front of the witness in all fairness ...(intervention)

MR MANCA: I'll do that Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: You've got this Mr Cronjé statement there now have you Mr - no not yet, I beg your pardon. Now you have it.

MR MANCA: Yes, Mr Commissioner. At paragraph 51 of that statement Mr Cronjé says the following.

"Hamid kept phoning me and saying that I should speak to Sanjay who was now worse off than before, that he needed to win some money and that I would have to deliver something."

Do you recall that, do recall saying that to Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: No.

MR MANCA: You don't recall saying it?

MR CASSIM: No.

MR MANCA: It's possible that you said it?

MR CASSIM: This I did not say to Mr Cronjé.

MR MANCA: You didn't say this to Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: Definitely not.

MR MANCA: What were you phoning him then about? Let me put it to you differently. Let's work out what exactly you didn't say to him.

MR CASSIM: Now that I have this copy here of what Mr Cronjé said, can I read this out.

MR MANCA: I'll take it to you very slowly and if you think I'm being unfair I'm sure Mr Witz will interject and if you don't understand me please tell me. Let's go from the top. Paragraph 51.

MR WITZ: Sorry Mr Commissioner if I could also be provided with a copy of this statement, we haven't been given a copy of this statement. So I can follow myself. We were given initially a draft statement that's been changed so possibly we can just take a short adjournment of possibly a few minutes so I can get a copy.

COMMISSIONER: You're entitled to have one, you must be provided with one. That's the original so don't put exclamation marks or anything on it please. Right you've got it now.

MR MANCA: Alright Mr Cassim paragraph 51. This says- "Subsequent to the first One-day international at Cochin..."

that's the timeframe and Mr Cronjé says the following -"Hamid kept phoning me."

Can we stop there for a moment? That's correct, you kept phoning him. We've been down this road, twenty to thirty calls, that's correct isn't it.

MR CASSIM: That Sanjay made to me?

MR MANCA: Let's start again. I'm reading to you from Mr Cronjé's statement at paragraph 51. The first four words. "Hamid kept phoning me..." do you understand that?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: The next bit of the sentence,

"... and saying that I should speak to Sanjay".

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: That's also correct. The next bit of the sentence,

"...who was now worse of than before."

MR CASSIM: I did not say that.

MR MANCA: Alright what was ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: No the witness wouldn't have said that obviously in the nature of things, that's what he would have been told, presumably.

MR MANCA: The next bit,

"...that he needed to win some money.

Did you tell Mr Cronjé that Sanjay needed to win some money?

MR CASSIM: No.

MR MANCA: And did you tell Mr Cronjé, to quote Mr Cronjé, "I would have to deliver something".

MR CASSIM: No.

MR MANCA: Now, so the point of departure between you and Mr Cronjé is the extent to which you were suggesting to Mr Cronjé that he had he had to play along or that he had to deliver something to Mr Sanjay.

MR CASSIM: No the only thing I could tell Mr Cronjé was that Sanjay needed to speak to him. Whatever Mr Cronjé has written here, he has to answer to this because if I recall clearly, Mr Commissioner if I'm not out of context here that he told Adv Batohi that Sanjay kept on pestering him and told he was worse off than before. The next day ...(intervention)

MR MANCA: Sorry can I just stop you there for a moment, are you suggesting that Mr Cronjé is incorrect because the testimony in fact to this Commission was that it was Sanjay who told him that he was worse off than before. Is that ...(intervention)

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Is that the basis which you're saying that Mr Cronjé must be incorrect here?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: This is of course Mr Cronjé's statement.

MR CASSIM: That's correct, I know that.

MR MANCA: You are now trying to argue and find reasons as to why Mr Cronjé is incorrect, is that...(intervention)

MR CASSIM: I'm not trying to argue or look for reasons.

MR MANCA: Alright, the point of difference between you and Mr Cronjé and the statement is that you suggest that you didn't encourage him to cooperate and deliver to Mr Sanjay.

MR CASSIM: Never.

MR MANCA: What type of thing did Mr Sanjay Chawla say to you when he would phone you?

MR CASSIM: "Please can you get hold of Hansie, I would like to speak to him."

MR MANCA: About what?

MR CASSIM: I presume it was regarding pitch reports, forecasting, but until what has now transpired in the newspapers, I realised what they're up to.

MR MANCA: Alright let's first deal with your presumptions. You presumed that it was in relation to pitch conditions and match forecasting you said?

MR CASSIM: Did I say match forecasting or did I say pitch reports, selections, how many runs would be scored.

MR MANCA: I recall you now saying match forecasting.

MR CASSIM: I could have erred.

MR MANCA: When did you err, when you made a presumption or a minute ago?

MR CASSIM: A minute ago.

MR MANCA: Alright let's stick with what you say is not an error. He was talking to you about - you presumed that it was in respect of pitch conditions?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: Key selections?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: Why would Mr Sanjay...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: Number of runs you said too?

MR CASSIM: Number of runs, yes.

MR MANCA: Why would Mr Sanjay want that information?

MR CASSIM: I thought he was a punter.

MR MANCA: So Mr Sanjay would have wanted that information in order to bet on the games?

MR CASSIM: I presume so.

MR MANCA: And this is the same Mr Sanjay that you had already seen giving money to Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: So these numerous times that Mr Sanjay would phone you, why didn't you suggest to him that he just keep on making contact with Mr Cronjé himself?

MR CASSIM: I presume every time he tried to make contact with Mr Cronjé he couldn't get through then he would ask me to phone Mr Cronjé and I would speak to Mr Cronjé in Afrikaans and I would get through to him.

MR MANCA: And what would you tell Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: That Sanjay needs to get hold of him.

MR MANCA: You had no difficulty in carrying out these requests from Mr Sanjay, you never refused him once, you always made these telephone calls to Mr Cronjé.

MR CASSIM: The nature of the person that I am, I find it very hard to refuse anybody.

MR MANCA: At your own expense, long distance cellular telephone calls?

MR CASSIM: My own expense, yes.

MR MANCA: Sometimes inconveniencing you?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: Did Mr Sanjay ever sound agitated when he spoke to you?

MR CASSIM: No, not that I can recall.

MR MANCA: Is it possible that on some of these telephone conversations he sounded agitated and asked you to get hold of Mr Cronjé urgently?

MR CASSIM: No.

MR MANCA: He would be very relaxed?

MR CASSIM: As I can recall Mr Sanjay is a very relaxed person.

MR MANCA: He would be very relaxed on these telephone calls, no sense of urgency, nothing like that, just see if you can get hold of Mr Cronjé.

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: And you would of course immediately phone Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: There are times when he used to call me when I'm at my mobile phone and I can't phone out of my mobile phone and I'll get to the home or shop then I'd call Mr Cronjé.

MR MANCA: At the earliest opportunity?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: Even though Mr Sanjay didn't sound agitated or didn't appear to be in a hurry for you to contact Mr Cronjé, you would have done it almost immediately or rather at the earliest opportunity.

MR CASSIM: Correct.

COMMISSIONER: You presumably realised Mr Cassim that there was a degree of urgency because there were, it was a dynamic situation, it was on the go all the time, there were One-dayers, there were test matches, time was of the essence, presumably.

MR CASSIM: If I had the time I would do it Mr Commissioner because to me if it was time that was the essence to him I could only do it at my disposal.

MR MANCA: Did you have contact with Mr Cronjé after the Indian tour when he was in Dubai for the Sharjah Cup?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MR MANCA: That was in March of this year?

MR CASSIM: I don't remember the dates but I presume it was in March.

MR MANCA: If I understood you correctly you were actually in Dubai for the Sharjah Cup is that correct?

MR CASSIM: I was never near Dubai.

MR MANCA: Where were you?

MR CASSIM: In Johannesburg.

MR MANCA: I misunderstood you, you didn't go there, so if there was contact it would have been telephonic contact.

MR CASSIM: Telephonic contact.

MR MANCA: Did you mention - when you telephoned Mr Cronjé and I'm not restricting it to one or two telephone conversations, did any of your telephone conversations with Mr Cronjé in Dubai, when Mr Cronjé was in Dubai, did you mention to Mr Cronjé that Mr Sanjay would like to get hold of him?

MR CASSIM: I can't recall that.

MR MANCA: It's possible that you did?

MR CASSIM: Possibly.

MR MANCA: So then Mr Cronjé is obviously correct because he recollects that he did have such an approach from you whilst he was in Dubai, he says, Mr Cronjé says, that's paragraph 61 of his statement which is at page 19 -

"After the 2000 Indian tour whilst in Dubai for the Sharjah Cup in March of this year, I was again contacted by Hamid. He indicated that Sanjay wanted to resume contact with me along the same lines as in India. I'd by now developed sufficient resolve and I told him I wasn't interested."

So you're not in a position to deny that?

MR CASSIM: That's right.

MR MANCA: I just really want to understand your version of the events. You introduce Mr Cronjé to Mr Sanjay Chawla.

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: In fact you're in the room when money changes hands.

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: At the very least thereafter you make attempts on behalf of Mr Sanjay Chawla to get Mr Cronjé to contact Mr Chawla.

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: And that happens during the Indian tour, at the very least.

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: And you also make a similar call to Mr Cronjé when he was in Dubai for the Sharjah Cup on behalf of Mr Sanjay.

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: Mr Commissioner it's almost lunchtime, it would perhaps be a good time to adjourn.

COMMISSIONER: We'll reconvene at two o'clock.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS AT 13H00

ON RESUMPTION AT 14H00

HAMID CASSIM: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MANCA: (cont)

Thank you Mr Commissioner. Mr Cassim I jsut want to for a moment just go off the topic that we were discussing before the luncheon adjournment and I listened with interest to your evidence and read your statement in relation to the assistance that you have provided to players from, cricket players from the sub-continent to come to South Africa for medical treatment. Would I be correct in saying that it is not uncommon for players from the sub-continent to come to South Africa from time-to-time for specialised medical treatment?

MR CASSIM: When you say uncommon what do you mean by that?

MR MANCA: It happens from time-to-time.

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: Yes Mr Cassim I just, in fairness to you, want you to be aware and if you like to comment on that if at some stage during this inquiry I'm going to be called upon to express a view in regard to the manner in which and the extent to which you have been forthcoming and told the truth to this Commission, I want to tell you that it will be my submission that, having regard to the objective facts that we know about and having regard to the evidence that has been led by other witnesses, in particular that of Mr Cronjé, it will be my submission that you have not been entirely forthcoming with regard to your role in the involvement of Mr Sanjay and Mr Cronjé in relation to Mr Sanjay's betting activities with Mr Cronjé. Do you have any comment on that?

MR CASSIM: Well, that's your prerogative, what you want to say.

MR WITZ: Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I might just interpose. Surely that's a matter for argument, as to what my learned friends opinion is and what he's going to submit to you. That's not a question, it hasn't been framed in the form of a question. That's going to be his argument and his submission. It's very unfair to expect a witness to answer why would one person come and say this, one person say that. And I'm going to suggest this, that and the other. It's purely a matter for argument. He's entitled to argue and make submissions at the end. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, well that's precisely what Mr Manca has indicated. That he will make that argument, and he's giving Mr Cassim an opportunity, by way of addition to or subtraction from or variation of his evidence, to try and persuade Mr Manca not to make that submission in due course. It's a question very often put to witnesses by way of a statement, and it's an acceptable one.

MR MANCA: Yes, Mr Commissioner. That's all that I have for the moment. Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MANCA

COMMISSIONER: 'At the moment' sounded a little ominous, I must say, Mr Manca.

MR MANCA: Well, Mr Commissioner, the reason for that is that you are aware at the outset, I did - Mr Cassim did say that he would provide certain financial information to Ms Batohi and her investigators. It's very much on the basis that this is an ongoing investigation.

COMMISSIONER: Ms Batohi.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BATOHI: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. Mr Cassim I've - it's not the first time I've heard this story. Well, some of it. You obviously had a very, very close relationship with a number of international sporting stars, should I say.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: I'm just going to ask you to explain your relationship with just one or two of them. You said you became very close to Kapil Dev. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: And if I'm correct this was on or - during or about 1993. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: And your statement states that - well, this is paragraph 5.8 if you want to refer to it. It says that Kapil Dev invited you to attend a game in India.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: Who paid for that ticket?

MR CASSIM: I paid for that ticket.

MS BATOHI: So - just explain how did it come about that you got this invitation? What sort of match was it and why did you go?

MR CASSIM: It was the Hero Cup in 1993. Kapil Dev invited me to come down there. I paid for the tickets, but - and the entire accommodation was with the India cricket team.

MS BATOHI: And how long before this had you struck up a friendship with him?

MR CASSIM: It was in that year, when India - I think it was '92/'93 when India toured South Africa.

MS BATOHI: So just to give the Commission some idea about how many months after you first met him would you say he invited you to India for this Hero Cup cricket match?

MR CASSIM: I think the Hero Cup match took place in November, so it's about eight to nine months.

MS BATOHI: I'm just a bit - why did he do this? Why does he invite you for a cricket match?

MR CASSIM: The relationship I developed with Kapil Dev, when we struck up that relationship, we just became very close friends. I used to call him on a regular basis, and he used to always call me on a regular basis. When South Africa toured India, when I called him, he says I have - in actual fact I didn't bring the autobiography that Kapil Dev gave me, and when he - that was in '92, where he wrote there, 'Hope to see you soon in India.' And that's when I went down.

MS BATOHI: So are you just saying to this Commission then that you were prepared to pay for a ticket and go to India simply because you were invited by Kapil Dev?

MR CASSIM: Yes, and it was a holiday for me as well. We were three friends that decided to go down.

MS BATOHI: You also testified about your very close relationship with a number of the South African players. I'm just particularly interested in the benefit matches that you arranged for this Indian cricketer, Madanlal. Now just explain to the Commission, how did it come about that you got involved in the arrangements of this benefit match?

MR CASSIM: I did not get in the arrangement of the benefit matches, I got in the arrangements with the players.

MS BATOHI: I'm just surprised that whoever it was in India that was dealing with it didn't go directly to the United Cricket Board for example, to say, 'Look, we're having these benefit matches and we'd like to find out if any players of yours are interested.' Why did they come to you, a civilian who's struck up a friendship with players? Why didn't it go through official channels?

MR CASSIM: I can't answer that, but I'm sure Kapil Dev, his wife Romi used to arrange the benefit matches, used to phone me and say, 'Please try and get hold of this particular person - like Jonty Rhodes, Brian MacMillan', and the other players. What I would normally do, I would phone the UCB and get their contact numbers. And once or two occasions the UCB gave me -I think it was Mr Griffiths' number for Jonty Rhodes, I think he was his agent at that time, and I contacted him. But then Jonty couldn't make it for that then I used to just contact the other players.

MS BATOHI: Just explain how this worked. What was in it for you? Were you some sort of agent or some sort? You must have surely benefitted from this entire exercise in some way.

MR CASSIM: No, I never benefitted anything from this. I merely did it practically, out of goodness of my heart, for Kapil Dev and Madanlal or his wife.

MS BATOHI: I'm not going to rehash what my learned friend Mr Manca has already dealt with, but there are certain aspects of what he has dealt with that I will deal with a little further. You state at page 11 of your statement that - and if I recall from my consultation with you at the outset at Mr Witz's place, that the first time you were contacted by Mr Chawla was just before the triangular series took place in South Africa between South Africa, England and Zimbabwe. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: So you had no idea who he was when he called you, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Initially I had no idea who he was.

MS BATOHI: And this was, as you said, just before the triangular series?

MR CASSIM: Before the triangular series, I think the test matches were taking place at that stage.

MS BATOHI: Well, the triangular series if I recall took place towards the end of January. In fact, you say it was during the period of the triangular series that he contacted you. Are you now saying it was during the test matches? Correct me, please.

MR CASSIM: During the test matches, I think, when he contacted me. I've got no dates here in front of me, but I think it was just before that One-day matches.

MS BATOHI: Well, I think you'll - it's important when he first made contact with you, and you say in paragraph 8.1:

"It was during the time period that the triangular series was taking place in South Africa that I received a phone call from Sanjay Chawla."

Now is that correct, or not?

MR CASSIM: That's correct, but it was in between the test and the One-day matches, that's correct.

MS BATOHI: So must I now read from what you just said that it was between - it was during the period from the end of the test matches and the beginning of the triangular series that he contacted you for the first time?

MR CASSIM: Repeat that question, please, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: So are you now saying that it was during the period from the end of the test matches to the beginning of the triangular series that Mr Chawla contacted you for the first time?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: I'm just looking for my fixture list here, but is it correct that the Centurion match would have ended at around about the 20th of January this year? Is that correct? That was the last test match between South Africa and England.

MR CASSIM: I have no dates in front of me, Miss - Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: Alright, we're going to just get confirmation of that in a minute. But this would mean that basically it was towards the end of January that Mr Chawla contacted you for the first time.

MR CASSIM: It was just towards the end of January I think that last test match was being played. That's when he contacted me.

MS BATOHI: And when he phoned you - well, you had no idea who this person was that was calling you. How did the conversation go, very briefly?

MR CASSIM: When he called me he said, 'Hamid, how are you?' So I said, 'I'm fine. Who's speaking?' He said, 'It's Sanjay'. I said, 'Sanjay?' Then he said, 'Sanjay Chawla.' I says, 'No, I don't know you.' He says, 'No, I've met you in 90- - when India came to play', I don't even recall what year he gave me. And then we struck up a conversation and he says no, but he has met me and a lot of the players have told him about me, but I kept on saying, 'Sanjay, I don't recall who you are.'

MS BATOHI: Mr Cassim, I'd like you to think about this very carefully. You have testified - well, in your evidence-in- chief that it was during the triangular series that you met -that Mr Chawla called you for the first time, and now you've amplified that a little bit and basically said that it was perhaps during the test - the last test series which would have been at Centurion, which took place between the 14th to the 18th of January. During that period up until the start of the triangular series, you're sure about that? It was during that period?

MR CASSIM: I must be very honest. I just can't recall, but it was between the test - either the first test or the second test he called me, that's when he started talking to me.

MS BATOHI: Just explain that to me. Now you say it was between the test, 'either the first test or the second test.' What are you talking about now?

COMMISSIONER: He said between the first test and the second test. Is that right?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: Well, now we're moving a bit further back in time, because from the triangular series in your statement you've moved to between the period of the end of the test to the triangular series, then we went to the period of the Centurion test and the triangular series, and now you're talking about the first and the second test. Can you just think about this and tell me exactly what it is you mean, because I have no idea what you're talking about?

MR CASSIM: Adv Batohi, I think it was the test matches when he called me, but I have got no records of dates and that. I must be very honest with you, I've been going through a very difficult time in my life, and it wasn't of importance to me and I didn't even - see all those things, because I'm going a very difficult time in my life at that point.

MS BATOHI: Alright. Now I want you to then answer this question. If you now think it was during the test matches, why in your statement do you say very categorically, it was during the time period that the triangular series was taking place that he called you? Just answer that question, please. Why is there this difference?

MR CASSIM: Can't remember why I said that.

MS BATOHI: So is that not true?

MR CASSIM: I don't think that's - I don't think that's not true, because I've been going through - like I told you, Adv Batohi, I've been going through a very difficult period in my life, and I couldn't just remember everything at that time.

MS BATOHI: Mr Cassim, it was very, very simple for you to say when you made the statement, 'I think it was over this period, I'm not sure', that he contacted you for the - well, let's deal with it this way. How long before he landed in South Africa did he contact you for the first time?

MR CASSIM: I would say about two to three weeks ago.

MS BATOHI: Now we have evidence that he landed in South Africa on the 30th of December - I beg your pardon, January this year. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: I won't be able to tell you what was the date when he landed. It was a Sunday, if I recall.

MS BATOHI: Yes. Well, I have a document here. Would you accept that he arrived on the 30th of January? Would you accept that this - do you want to have a look at it, just to confirm that it was 30th of January 2000 that he landed in South Africa?

COMMISSIONER: Was that a Sunday?

MS BATOHI: My learned friend Mr Witz confirmed it is a Sunday.

COMMISSIONER: I think it confirms that Mr Witz is right.

MS BATOHI: Alright. So on your evidence now, Mr Cassim, he called about two to three weeks before that. Is that what you're now going to finally say about when he called you for the first time? Two to three weeks before his arrival on the 30th.

MR CASSIM: Like I told you, Adv Batohi, it was very difficult for me to remember, but I would think it was two to three weeks.

MS BATOHI: And what would you - well, how many times did he call you before - was it just the one phone call that he made to you before he landed in South Africa, or not?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: How many calls did he make to you, and over what period?

MR CASSIM: I won't be able to tell you how many calls, but it was numerous calls.

MS BATOHI: What was the object of him contacting you?

MR CASSIM: Initially he befriended me, telling me that he knew me. Then afterwards he phoned me and he asked me for weather reports. For the second test or the first test, I can't recall, but he asked me for weather reports and I'm sure if you checked on my telephone calls, I used to phone the weather people for him and he used to call me back, to give him the weather reports. He wanted a five-day weather report in South Africa.

MS BATOHI: So for how long was this carrying on, his phone calls to you for weather reports? Was this the period two to three weeks that you say before he finally landed in South Africa?

MR CASSIM: I presume so. That was before the test matches.

MS BATOHI: Before the test matches?

MR CASSIM: Sorry, during the test matches.

MS BATOHI: Which test matches are you talking about now, because England and South Africa played test matches that started in November of the previous year, so when you say during the test matches, it's very vague 'cause you say he first contacted you to - I'm not going to belabour this point, but I just hope that we can round it off quickly, you say two to three weeks before he landed he spoke to you for the first time, and then you talk about test matches, and now you say again, 'during the test matches'. What do you mean? Because the test matches started on or about the 11th of November was South Africa's first test against Zimbabwe. And then there were tests against England, which started late in November, the first test against England was 25, 26, 27 - what test matches are you talking about?

MR CASSIM: Against England - I think I - if I can recall, it was the England/South African test matches.

MS BATOHI: Which test matches? From November last year?

MR CASSIM: I know I told you it was two to three weeks ago, but I just can't recall. I have no dates. At that point of time, Adv Batohi, I told you, I've been going through a very difficult time in my life and I just can't recall any dates whatsoever.

MS BATOHI: No, I'm sorry, Mr Cassim, that's not good enough. You have testified - we're now going back to late November last year, which is a far cry from your initial statement that he contacted you for the first time during the triangular series. Now I'd like you to explain that. What is the position? When did he contact you? Then you go to two to three weeks, which should take us to early January. Now you're talking about the test match which started end of November. When did Mr Chawla contact you for the first time? Think about it and give me an answer as clearly as you possibly can.

MR CASSIM: It was during the test matches.

MS BATOHI: That is from November and the test matches finish at Centurion on or about the 18th of 19th of January. Now when during the test matches did he contact you for the first time?

MR CASSIM: I honestly can't remember, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: Well, is it closer to the start in November, or is it closer to the end at Centurion in January?

MR CASSIM: Say November.

MS BATOHI: November?

COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, Miss. Sorry, I'm interrupting you. When he asked you to furnish him - when he asked you for the first time to furnish him with a weather report, weather report for what area?

MR CASSIM: For that - for the - for South Africa.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, but South Africa as we all know is a big place. I mean, it could be Cape Town, it could be Pretoria, Centurion, there'd be widely different weather conditions.

MR CASSIM: I don't recall where the first test match was being played, but I think it was for the first test match.

MS BATOHI: So that was between South Africa and England in November last year. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: How do you suddenly recall it was at that time in November that he contacted you for the first time?

MR CASSIM: I just recall now, it was in test matches and not in the triangular matches that he contacted me for the first time.

MS BATOHI: I'm sorry, Mr Cassim, that's just not good enough. What - you thought about this very carefully I take it before you made your statement about when you've met Mr Chawla for the first time. You must have thought about that carefully, isn't that correct?

COMMISSIONER: You must look at paragraph 8-2 of your statement as well, that might help to identify the time.

MS BATOHI: Yes, paragraph 8-2, perhaps if you've got it open in front of you, states that - talking about the conversation that you had, and I presume this was the first conversation with Mr Chawla, because it seems to be in that context if you look at 8-1:

"He told me that he was coming to South Africa for the triangular series, that he was a cricket enthusiast and that he followed test cricket world wide."

Now you obviously thought very carefully about when you met Mr Chawla. Why is it you mention the triangular series in your statement, and now you're prepared to say that it goes - well, not met him - the first time he made contact with you could have been as far back as the end of November last year?

MR CASSIM: If I can recall clearly it was the test matches, Adv Batohi, really.

MS BATOHI: Well, I'm not going to be labour this point, because Mr Cassim, if you remember clearly now it was the test matches, then why did you say triangular series in your statement? Can you explain that?

MR CASSIM: I probably could have made a mistake, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: And do you think there's any other mistakes in your statement that you want to just correct now, before we proceed any further?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: Are you absolutely sure about that?

MR CASSIM: Can I consult with Adv Manie Witz?

MS BATOHI: Yes, sure. I have no problem with that, Mr Commissioner.

MR WITZ: If I can just take a short adjournment, thank you, Mr Commissioner. I'll consult in the presence of my learned friend, 'cause he is under cross-examination, so I don't want to consult with him in a term of consulting, so I'll do it in the presence of my learned friend, Adv Batohi. If we can have a short adjournment.

COMMISSIONER: That might be more appropriate. We'll take a short adjournment.

MR WITZ: Thank you.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS AT 14H28

ON RESUMPTION AT 14H30

COMMISSIONER: Is your client ready to continue Mr Witz?

MR WITZ: Yes he is and I am indebted to you for the short adjournment, thank you Mr Commissioner.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BATOHI: I think I should place on record that Mr Witz consulted not in my presence. I had no problem with him consulting with Mr Cassim.

Mr Cassim you consulted with your counsel now. Are you satisfied now that there's no other mistakes, is there anything you want to correct at this stage?

MR CASSIM: I am satisfied.

MS BATOHI: And are you now saying that the first time Mr Chawla contacted you, as far as you can now recall, was during or about the end of November last year?

MR CASSIM: Round about then, that's right. November.

MS BATOHI: You see, just one other thing I recall from my consultation with you at Mr Witz's house about when you met Mr Chawla for the first time, you told me and my colleague Mr Geoff Edwards who was present with me, who confirms that you stated that the first time that you met Mr Chawla was just before the triangular series commenced between South Africa, Zimbabwe and England. Now if this is the case that you met him in November, why did you tell us that during consultation?

MR CASSIM: When you say met him or spoke to him over the telephone?

MS BATOHI: I beg your pardon. Your first telephonic contact - your first contact with him. The first time he contacted you was just before the triangular series. Now if this is correct what you now say to us, why did you tell us in consultation that that was the case?

MR CASSIM: As I said, I couldn't recall dates at that time because I was going through a very difficult period in my life.

MS BATOHI: What makes you recall the date now as you sit here in not very comfortable surroundings? How are you able to recall it was in November? You would have - before you answer that - you would have consulted with your attorneys, attorney and counsel before you consulted with me, and I take it one of the things you would have discussed is when Sanjay contacted you for the first time. You consult with them, you consult with me, you make a statement under surroundings which are not as harsh as these, suddenly you sit here and in the space of five minutes it suddenly dawns on you that the contact was made long before you told us it was, or your statement reflects it. How is it that it suddenly occurred to you that this contact was made so early?

MR CASSIM: It occurred to me now that when you - I didn't realise that the test matches and the triangular matches were that far apart from one another.

MS BATOHI: Come, Mr Cassim. When you were consulting with your attorneys, when you consulted with them you must have thought about not just when the test matches were. When did Mr Chawla contact you for the first time? And there's a big difference between the end of January and the end of November. I'm not going to labour this much longer, but I'm just curious to know how it suddenly dawns on you here that it happened in November and not at the end of January?

MR CASSIM: Adv Batohi, like I told you, I just could not recall the dates.

COMMISSIONER: Could I just chip in here, if you don't mind? Have a look at paragraph 8-10, please Mr Cassim. Now, can you remember did Sanjay just spend the day in Johannesburg and then fly on, or did he spend some time there, the day you met him?

MR CASSIM: The day I met him he spent about two or three - three to four hours in Johannesburg and he proceeded to Durban.

COMMISSIONER: Doesn't that tell us what the time of the month was, and what month, because if you look at paragraph 8.10, it's clear that the South African side was at the Beverley Hills, and that was the day that he arrived and spent, as Mr Cassim has told us, three or four hours in Johannesburg and he went on to Durban.

MS BATOHI: Mr Commissioner, I don't quite follow you. We're talking about telephonic contact, not the first meeting with him. The first contact ever, and that would have been telephonic.

You see, Mr Cassim, I'm going to put it to you that when you in fact consulted with your counsel and with myself and Mr Edwards, you were very clear about the fact that you met Mr - well, Mr Chawla contacted you for the first time shortly before the triangular series, and now as you sit here and you've realised that there's a lot of cellphone detailed billing et cetera, that telephone contact between you and Sanjay before January this year can very easily be established. You didn't realise that earlier, and now that you've realised it, you've actually changed your evidence to suit that possibility or eventuality. Can you comment on that?

MR CASSIM: I knew that cellphone or telephonic billings are at disposal at any time if you needed it, but like as I said, I couldn't recall dates. I thought that the test matches and the one-day were very close to one another.

MS BATOHI: Mr Sanjay then arrived in Johannesburg International Airport, and it would appear that he landed at -what time? Do you have the time? If you'll bear with me, Mr Commissioner. Let me get these detailed billings in order.

It would appear that Mr Chawla came in through Customs at about - just after half-past twelve, midday. Would you agree with that, more-or-less?

MR CASSIM: More-or-less, I think so.

MS BATOHI: And your evidence then is that he spent a couple of hours with you. And it appears from the documents that we have that he flew out of Johannesburg on the same evening, later that evening. Would you confirm that?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: So he spent a couple of hours with you whilst he was in Johannesburg on that day?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: It's about half-past seven that he left for Durban. Now what - I'm just a big confused, Mr Cassim, I do understand you're a very - a person who likes doing this for people, but why do you decide to go and pick Mr Chawla up at the airport, take him wherever, to your shop in Fordsburg, spend a couple of hours with him, and then drive him back to the airport, I presume. Is that what you did?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: Why - didn't this affect the running of your business and things? Why did you get involved to that extent with a stranger, someone who meant absolutely nothing to you?

MR CASSIM: Being the person I am, not only for Sanjay, many other people, I would go out of my way for them. I know it affected my business, I had my sons helping me, it was a Sunday evening, my business is open 'til late on a Sunday and they assisted me on that particular day.

MS BATOHI: How did you recognise him at the airport?

MR CASSIM: To be very honest with you, I did not recognise him, he was one - the - I - if I can recall clearly, he phoned me from inside, I think he had a problem with his visa or what it was, and he was the last person to practically come out of there. I actually waited for about two hours at the airport.

MS BATOHI: You haven't answered my question. How did you recognise him when he arrived at the airport?

MR CASSIM: He called me from inside to say he was coming out.

MS BATOHI: Well, he didn't know who you were either.

MR CASSIM: That's what I - I presume so, he didn't know who I was.

MS BATOHI: How did you all recognise each other?

MR CASSIM: He was the last person to walk out of the Johannesburg International Airport, the Customs section.

MS BATOHI: Well, Mr ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: It was a meeting of cellphones by the sound of things.

MS BATOHI: Mr Cassim, you wouldn't have know that he was the last person. You couldn't have known that, because people could have come after him. But how did you all recognise each other?

MR CASSIM: I'll tell you what, Adv Batohi, Johannesburg International Airport, I didn't even know that myself, has got two incoming arrivals. This was from British - I think it was from the British Airways section.

MS BATOHI: Just answer the question, please, Mr Cassim. We'll be very long. How did you recognise each other? For the last time.

MR CASSIM: Just presumed he was an Indian man coming through and he was the only one left. He was the only Indian, the last Indian, the last person to walk out of the Customs.

MS BATOHI: So what happened then?

MR CASSIM: I went up to him and asked him, 'Are you Sanjay?', and he said, 'Yes, Hamid.'

MS BATOHI: Just like that? You see the person that you presume to be the last Indian person, and you go up to him and you say, 'Are you Sanjay?', and lo and behold, it is him.

MR CASSIM: Yes, because he contacted me with the telephone number. It can only be him, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: Well, I can't quite figure that one out, Mr Cassim, but I'll leave it at that. He then spends a couple hours with you. You drop him off at the airport, he flies down to Durban. You must have had some discussion with him in the course of those hours that you spent with him, regarding what was going to happen the next day.

MR CASSIM: Well, he discussed cricket with me, he said he's a cricket enthusiast, he loved watching cricket and we just spoke generally.

MS BATOHI: What did you speak about what was going to happen the next day?

MR CASSIM: He was in particular - he wanted to meet the South African players, and in particular Hansie.

MS BATOHI: Tell us the story, Mr Cassim. What did you all speak about what was going to happen the next day?

MR CASSIM: I can't recall what the story is, but I just know he wanted to meet the players, and I couldn't go with him to Durban that evening due to family commitments, I went the next day, and he wanted to meet most of the players, particularly Hansie.

MS BATOHI: Mr Cassim, you all must have discussed how this was going to happen, what was going to happen the next day.

MR CASSIM: Honestly tell you we never discussed anything what was going to happen the next day.

MS BATOHI: Well, why did you fly down to Durban?

MR CASSIM: Wanted to meet Hansie and the boys.

MS BATOHI: So you mean to say he wanted to meet Hansie Cronjé and the boys, and there's no discussion about how it was going to happen, where it was going to happen, when you were going to fly down, how the meeting or introduction was going to take place, or anything like that?

MR CASSIM: No, not like that Ma'am, Adv Batohi. There was no discussions how we're going to take the meeting and what we're going to discuss. There was definitely not discussions.

MS BATOHI: Well, what was agreed between you and Mr Chawla about what was going to happen the next day when he left for Durban that evening?

MR CASSIM: When he left for Durban that evening I told him I will meet him the next day, I will give him an introduction to Hansie and whoever the other players were.

MS BATOHI: Please can you explain this to me, Mr Cassim? Why were you prepared to fly down to Durban the following day to introduce this stranger to Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: Like I say, like we discussed it earlier, he was talking to me on the phone and he wanted to meet Mr Cronjé. With the goodness of my heart, I've realised today that I don't just do this for anybody -- and I won't introduce anyone to anyone again because what has happened in this - in the light of this match-fixing investigation. But when I took Sanjay there he wanted to meet Hansie, speak to him about cricket and the love of the game.

MS BATOHI: I'm just going to ask you this one more time, Mr Cassim. You had a business to run, you obviously had a lot of other commitments. You have a stranger flying in and here you're prepared to get on to a plane, fly down to Durban simply to introduce him to Mr Cronjé. Is that really what you want this Commission to believe, that you had no other involvement in this entire affair?

MR CASSIM: I can definitely tell you I never had any involvement in this entire affair, Adv Batohi.

COMMISSIONER: Can you tell me this? We heard in evidence from Mr Cronjé that he was very approachable by members of the public, he made himself available in his room and wherever people wanted to make contact, and that was obviously your experience too, as far as Hansie was concerned, he was a - you could get through to him quite easily apparently.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

COMMISSIONER: Well, didn't the thought occur to you that it would have been much easier, and just as effective, if you'd phoned Hansie and said to him, 'Hansie, there's a chap who is coming out from England. He's very keen to meet you, he's a cricket enthusiast like me. If I tell him to make contact with you at the Beverley Hills, where I think he happens to be staying, will you see him?' Why did you have to go all the way down to sit in on a 10 minutes conversation, and then go all the way back to Johannesburg? It's just - I don't think even generous people, like yourself Mr Cassim, behave that way. That's what worries me.

MR CASSIM: I can understand that I should have done that, I should have just called Hansie and said, 'Look, meet this guy.' But it was a one-day match, I thought I'd probably I'd also stay over and see the match, but due to business commitments and family commitments, I had to cone back.

COMMISSIONER: But precisely those business commitments and family commitments that would have suggested that you shouldn't have gone at all.

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: And then dealing with the actual meeting with Sanjay in his room at the Beverley Hills hotel. Is there any particular reason why you and Sanjay didn't go up to Mr Cronjé's room?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: You then, in paragraph 18 of your statement, state that there was a conversation between Hansie Cronjé and Sanjay, and my learned friend Mr Manca has dealt with this at length, but I'm going to deal with just one or two aspects of this. In the paragraph before that you make it quite clear that you had been watching a provincial game of cricket, which was being shown on the TV. Okay?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: Now this conversation only took place about 10 minutes, that's between Sanjay and Hansie Cronjé. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: And you state in paragraph 8.18 that they were talking inter alia about:

"Match forecasting, pitch conditions, team selection, the conditions upon winning the toss. They were further discussing the number of runs in one-day international matches. I also heard them discussing team selection, who would be batting, in which order and who would be bowling."

You confirm all of that?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: Now it seems like that 10 minute conversation must have covered all of that. You must have heard everything they were talking about.

MR CASSIM: Not everything, but probably the 10 minutes would have related to everything.

MS BATOHI: Because there's a lot of things that you heard in 10 minutes. Now I want you to tell this court - I beg your pardon, this Commission, you broadly say 'forecasting'. What were they saying about forecasting?

MR CASSIM: I'm not a betting man, I'm not a gambler, but what I realised forecast, putting what the scores they were going to score, who would probably win.

MS BATOHI: I'm not talking about what it could probably mean. Just listen to my question. What were they talking about forecasting? You in your statement say they were talking about forecasting. Now what were they saying about forecasting?

MR CASSIM: Can't tell you what they were saying there, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: What were they saying about pitch conditions?

MR CASSIM: Well, Hansie would tell him the pitch - this pitch is fine, but I - let's say there were play hypo - they were playing probably at King's Park.

MS BATOHI: I don't want to talk hypothetically, probably where they were playing. I want to know what they were talking about pitch conditions. Nobody was talking hypothetically, I take it. They were talking about pitch conditions. Now, what were they saying?

MR CASSIM: I'm going to be very honest with you, they were just talking about the pitches. Hansie will tell him, 'Probably the score will be - we can go to about 220, 230'.

MS BATOHI: Which pitch was he referring to?

MR CASSIM: I assume he was referring to the King's Park pitch.

MS BATOHI: Why do you assume that?

MR CASSIM: Because I think that's what Sanjay asked him, that - because that was the next match.

MS BATOHI: What did Sanjay ask him about the next match?

MR CASSIM: To say what do you think the scores would be at this match, and how would the pitch be and which team was going to play.

MS BATOHI: Which team was going to play? Surely - are you talking about who was going to be in the team?

MR CASSIM: Sorry, who was going to be in the team. That's correct.

MS BATOHI: "Sanjay was asking him about the pitch conditions and what the possible scores could be the next day."

That would have been the match between South Africa and Zimbabwe, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: I think so.

MS BATOHI: And what did they say about team selection?

MR CASSIM: I just can't remember what they said about team selections.

MS BATOHI: Why can't you remember that, Mr Cassim?

MR CASSIM: It's very difficult for me to remember all those things, Adv Batohi, because I know it might have been a 10 minute conversation - I was watching the cricket match and I wasn't really interested in what they were saying, but from the outset I could just hear the few things that they were discussing.

MS BATOHI: No, no, Mr Cassim. You know exactly what went on in that conversation, and I'm going to tell you why I put that to you. You've now told us that they were talking about the match the following day, which was South Africa and Zimbabwe, they were talking about what the possible total scores could be, they were talking about the pitch at Kingsmead. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Probably correct, ja.

MS BATOHI: Not possibly correct, Mr Cassim ...(intervention)

MR CASSIM: That would be correct.

MS BATOHI: That is your testimony. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: You also say in your statement they were talking about 'the conditions upon winning the toss.' What were they saying about that?

MR CASSIM: I can't actually recall properly. I think Sanjay could have asked Hansie, 'If you win the toss will you bat, or will you lose?'

MS BATOHI: Sorry, I don't want to know what he could have asked him. Well, what did he ask him? Did he ask him what he would do if he won or lost the - if he won the toss?

MR CASSIM: I don't recall.

MS BATOHI: What do you mean in your statement when you say 'they spoke about conditions upon winning the toss'?

MR CASSIM: Probably they were just discussing the condition of the pitches.

MS BATOHI: No, I'm sure that conditions upon winning the toss doesn't have anything to do with the pitches. It may in some indirect way, but you explain that to us, what were they - you were listening to - you were there, Mr Cassim, although you say you weren't listening intently to what they were saying, but you were there and you heard them talking about the conditions upon winning the toss. That's in your statement. Now what were they saying about that?

MR CASSIM: I presume Sanjay could have asked Hansie ...(intervention)

MS BATOHI: Sorry, Mr Cassim. You start you statements with 'I presume he could have'. I don't want any presumptions about what could have happened or what he could he have said. I want you to tell us what you heard him say, or them say about the conditions upon winning the toss.

MR CASSIM: I don't recall what they were discussing to do with - about winning the toss. I just can't remember, but I know they were talking of winning the toss, they were talking of pitches, they were talking of runs, and me not being a betting man, I never knew what they were discussing.

MS BATOHI: Mr Cassim, you'd like this Commission to believe that you didn't know what was going on there, and that is why your statement is just so vague. It talks about forecasting, pitch reports, selection of teams. It doesn't go into any detail about who was saying what. You say in your statement:

"I also heard them discussing team selection and who would be batting in which order."

Now tell me what you heard about that, who would be batting in which order. Your statement says, 'I heard them' discussing this. Now what were they saying about that?

MR CASSIM: It's very difficult to remember, but - it's difficult for me to remember, Adv Batohi. I know my statement says that, but I mean, the players - I don't even know which players were going to play and which were not playing. Hansie and him were discussing it. My ears were not 100% with them, but the little bit that I heard of I put it in my statement.

MS BATOHI: It's not a little bit, Mr Cassim. You yourself say it's quite a lot that you heard. And just to complete that, what did they say about who would be bowling? That's also in your statement. You say:

"They spoke about who would be bowling."

Now that means you heard them say something about who would be bowling. What was discussed about who would be bowling?

MR CASSIM: Like the batting and the bowling, I can't recall what they were discussing really, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: You see, Mr Cassim, this is what I find very, very strange about this entire conversation that took place between Cronjé and Cassim - I beg your pardon, Cronjé and Sanjay. You hear about pitch forecasting, you hear about team selection, you hear about winning the toss, you hear about team selection, you hear about batting, you hear about - well, I haven't asked you this one. What did you hear about the number of runs in one-day international matches? You said you also heard them discussing that. What was discussed about that? Was that in relation to the match on the following day?

MR CASSIM: I think they were discussing how many - what - how many runs a One-day match can - you can get in a One-day match.

MS BATOHI: Come, Mr Cassim. You can't just in the air talk about how many runs you could get in a one-day match, 'cause -following cricket from 1992 as you have, travelling around the world to Sharjah and India to watch matches, you know that the total that a team can get would depend on various things. So they can't just be talking in the air about how many runs a team can get in One-day internationals. What were they talking about, about the number of runs?

MR CASSIM: I think between Hansie and Sanjay they knew what they were talking. I wouldn't get myself involved in things like that because it never interested me one bit, Ma'am.

MS BATOHI: I'm not going to belabour this as well - again - any further, but just - you in your statement say that they were further discussing the number of runs in one-day international cricket matches. For the last time, what were they saying about the number of number of runs?

MR CASSIM: They were saying that how many runs could you get probably in an international match? Assuming it was King's Park, they would say - I think if you bat first probably you'll get 250 runs, and second probably - if you were batting second the ball will swing and you will get less.

MS BATOHI: Now what impression did you get - I think my learned friend has asked you this already, but what impression did you get about what was going on there, especially the envelope with money was handed over?

MR CASSIM: The impression I got was that Sanjay wanted information from Hansie?

MS BATOHI: Only information?

MR CASSIM: I think only information because when he gave him that money, he wanted some - probably a lot of information from Hansie regarding matches, team selection, pitch reports.

MS BATOHI: You see, in the one breath Mr Cassim, you say that you really didn't know what was going on there, you weren't listening. In the other breath you're prepared to say that it was only for information you think that this money was being handed over. How do you know that, when on your own evidence, you weren't even listening to this conversation?

MR CASSIM: That's the only thing I could say, is that when he gave him the money it could just be for information.

MS BATOHI: Sorry, Mr Commissioner, I'm just looking through my notes of the earlier testimony, but I'll get back to that at a later stage.

Just one other thing. What match were you watching on TV? That was in Sanjay's room at the Beverley Hills.

MR CASSIM: I can't - I think - I think it was a provincial match. It was a Standard Bank day/night match.

MS BATOHI: Was that a live match?

MR CASSIM: It was a live match.

MS BATOHI: You see, Mr Cassim, you've tried to give the impression that you really didn't know what was going on between Mr Cronjé and Mr Sanjay. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Could you rephrase that question, please, I ...(intervention)

MS BATOHI: You've tried to give the impression to this court that you really didn't know what was going on between Mr Chawla and Mr Cronjé.

MR CASSIM: That's correct, I think.

MS BATOHI: That's correct, I think?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: You see, my learned friend Mr Manca has taken you through Mr Cronjé's statement, and I'm just going to read out a couple of portions of his statement and I'd like you to comment on it, on why he would include you in this if you really had nothing to do with this plan, or arrangement that he had between - or arrangement that there was between him and Mr Chawla.

MR CASSIM: Sorry, can I get Mr Cronjé's statement, please?

COMMISSIONER: You've got a copy, Mr Witz?

MR WITZ: No, I've given it back to you, Mr Commissioner, the original. I haven't got a copy. The one that we were given isn't the one that you have, so I could just borrow your copy or the original again, please.

COMMISSIONER: Has somebody else got a copy of Mr Cronjé's statement for Mr Witz?

MR WITZ: Thank you. I do have one now. Thank you, Mr Commissioner.

MS BATOHI: See at paragraph 37, on page 12, Cronjé states:

"Hamid and Sanjay indicated that Sanjay wanted me to supply them with information, but did not specify what information."

He then goes on to say:

"They also said that I could make a lot of money if we lose a match."

And then he goes on to say, about the next line:

"I was spinning them along."

Do you see that? You see he puts you and Sanjay Chawla into one category. Why would he do that if you had nothing to do with this plan? Do you have any comment on that?

MR CASSIM: I would like Mr Cronjé to comment on that, on his first statement, he said - on this affidavit he says 'they, them', and in the Commission I think he told Adv Batohi that he was - 'Sanjay' kept on doing this to him and not Hamid. If I can recall clearly.

MS BATOHI: In paragraph 48, on page 15, once again he says:

"I then told Sanjay that perhaps I could do something in the first one-day international in India, thinking that if we could get the match out of the way that might satisfy them."

He's once again talking about you and Sanjay. You can't comment about why he uses the term 'them' there?

MR CASSIM: I can't.

MS BATOHI: Paragraph 49 he says:

"I ignored Sanjay and Hamid the night before the first one-day at Cochin, but when I was phoned the next morning and urged to go - "

I think it should read:

"But then I was phoned the next morning and urged to go ahead."

Then he says:

"I told them we would lose and I had spoken to other players."

MR CASSIM: Adv Batohi, I think only Cronjé can answer this, because he's - in one statement he says 'Hamid and Sanjay', and 'them'. Then he says Hamid's got nothing - Hamid had nothing to do with it, then he says, 'Sanjay'. I think Mr Cronjé should clarify this matter.

MS BATOHI: No, I think we'd like your comment on it, Mr Cassim. In paragraph 51, which I think my learned friend also cross-examined you on, just bear with me for a moment.

Paragraph 51, do you have that?

"Hamid kept phoning me and saying that I should speak to Sanjay who was now worse off than before, that he needed to win some money and that I would have to deliver something."

Did that ever happen?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: So is Mr Cronjé either mistaken or lying about that?

MR CASSIM: I think so.

MS BATOHI: Paragraph 56, the second line:

"He and Hamid had become increasing upset by the fact that I had not delivered the required results, in consequence of which they had been losing more and more money."

Did you ever convey that to Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: And finally, in paragraph 61. It was put to you by my learned friend, Mr Manca - paragraph 61 was put to you, was read to you, I think it was up until 'interested', but I'm going to read to you until 'India':

"After the 2000 Indian tour, whilst I was in Dubai for the Sharjah Cup in March of this year, I was again contacted by Hamid. He indicated that Sanjay wishes to resume contact with me along the same lines as in India."

And them Mr Manca read further and you said you can't deny that conversation did take place. Do you recall that?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: So just the converse of that, what you're saying is that that conversation could possibly have taken place.

MR CASSIM: Possibly.

MS BATOHI: Now let's, on the basis that it could possibly have taken place, Mr Cronjé would have said to you then that:

"Sanjay wished to resume contact with me along the same lines as in India."

That is what it says there, and you say that that conversation could possibly have taken place. You understand so far?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MS BATOHI: Now why would Mr Cronjé phone you and tell you that he wants to resume contact with Sanjay along the same lines as in India, when you don't even know what happened in India on your version?

MR CASSIM: Mr Cronjé didn't phone me that he wants to resume the same lines as with Sanjay. Sanjay wanted to resume the line with Mr Cronjé.

MS BATOHI: Sorry, just explain that to me, I'm a bit confused.

MR CASSIM: Batohi said that Cronjé phoned. It wasn't Cronjé.

MS BATOHI: So who called you? This is Mr Cronjé's statement. He says he was contacted by you, Hamid. Look at the second line.

"After the 2000 Indian tour whilst I was in Dubai for the Sharjah Cup in March of this year, I was again contacted by Hamid. He indicated..."

that is you:

"....that Sanjay wished to resume contact with me along the same lines as in India."

That means that you are now telling Cronjé that Sanjay wishes to resume contact with him on the same lines as in India. Now you've just a few minutes before that said you can't deny this, this could possibly have happened. Now what would Mr - you on your evidence had no idea at all what was going on in India. Why would you have contacted Mr Cronjé to tell him that Sanjay wants to resume contact on the same basis?

MR CASSIM: I presume it was the pitch reports, the runs and all that.

MS BATOHI: Well, why do you presume that? What was it? You're in the best position to tell us.

MR CASSIM: It was that. It was the pitch reports, it was the team selections. And Adv Batohi, I know I'm going to be out of context here, but I wish you can get those tapes from India, and I will - I definitely know I don't feature in any in those tape in India, from India.

MS BATOHI: At the moment I'm - the tapes in India don't matter in this instance. So you now say that you did contact Mr Cronjé whilst he was in Dubai. You did tell him that Sanjay wishes to resume contact along the same lines as in India, and you say that that would have been about pitch reports and team selections. Is that what you're saying?

MR CASSIM: Possibly, but I know I did contact Hansie in India, and he had some tickets also for a match.

MS BATOHI: You're talking about Sharjah?

MR CASSIM: In Sharjah, that's correct.

MS BATOHI: Alright. Well, let's forget about the tickets part of it. What did you talk to him about what sort of contacts Sanjay wished to resume with him?

MR CASSIM: I presumed it was ...(intervention)

MS BATOHI: Not presume, Mr Cassim. You were the one that had the conversation. Let's just have the facts.

MR CASSIM: It must be relating to match ...(intervention)

MS BATOHI: Not 'must be', Mr Cassim. Let's just get down to the facts, and we're going to be much quicker. I want to know from you, you phoned Mr Cronjé in Sharjah, okay? You say it was regarding some tickets et cetera, but also you phoned him about Sanjay wanting to resume contact with him. Now tell me about what you told him, about Sanjay wanting to resume contact with him. That's what I'm interested in, and not 'it must be', or 'I presume', you had the conversation. Just tell us like it was.

MR CASSIM: Sanjay wanted to contact him whatever they were discussing in India.

MS BATOHI: Sorry?

MR CASSIM: Whatever they were discussing in India, probably.

MS BATOHI: Now you say 'probably'. Please, Mr Cassim, we're going to be spending the rest of the afternoon here is we don't get down to the brass tacks. Did Sanjay contact you and ask you to contact Mr Cronjé in Sharjah?

MR CASSIM: I think so.

MS BATOHI: You think so?

MR CASSIM: Yes, okay, yes.

MS BATOHI: Not, 'yes, okay', you're not saying it to please me, Mr Cassim.

MR CASSIM: I just can't recall all these thing, Adv Batohi. Really, it's being a bit - it's a tough - for me to remember dates and times, and all this, it's very difficult.

MS BATOHI: I'm not asking you about dates and times, Mr Cassim. You have testified that you contacted Mr Cronjé in Sharjah. Now my question to you is did Sanjay contact you and ask you to contact Mr Cronjé in Sharjah?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MS BATOHI: What did he want you to tell Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: He just wanted to - what he told me was that he wanted to speak to Mr Cronjé, and I should contact Hansie that Sanjay wanted to contact him. If Sanjay can contact him, I should give Sanjay the go-ahead.

MS BATOHI: So what you're saying now is that you only call Mr Cronjé in Sharjah to tell him that Sanjay wanted to contact him?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: Now just a moment ago you said that you were telling him something about pitch reports and team selections, things like that. Just a minute or two ago you said that that is what you told Mr Cronjé.

MR CASSIM: That was from the last discussion they ever had here in South Africa. Whatever transpired between Hansie and Sanjay in India, up until today I personally know that I will never know what transpired between the two of them.

COMMISSIONER: You see, Mr Cassim, what disturbs me a little, you described your experience in the - at the Beverley Hills hotel, your witnessing what transpired between Cronjé and Sanjay, and it shocked you as I understand it. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

COMMISSIONER: Here we are several months down the line and you're still doing Sanjay's dirty work for him. That doesn't gel, doesn't gel at all. What I'm saying to you, you're still doing his dirty work for him. You're phoning Cronjé and you're telling him that Sanjay wants to speak to him about this that and the other, the same sort of stuff that shocked you at the room in the Beverley Hills hotel. That's why I have a little problem in understanding everything you're saying to me.

MS BATOHI: Now I'm just going to get back to paragraph 61. When Mr Manca put this very statement to you, the statement in Mr Cronjé's affidavit, where Mr Cronjé says he was contacted by you and you indicated that:

"Sanjay wished to resume contact with me along the same lines as in India."

You follow? When that was put to you by Mr Manca, you said you can't deny that happened. And we've gone through this now, and you've admitted now that Sanjay did call you and that as a result of that you called Mr Cronjé in Sharjah, discussed tickets and also the fact that Sanjay wished to resume contact with him. Am I correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: And along what lines - Mr Cronjé says Sanjay - you told him that Sanjay wished to resume contact along the same lines as in India. What were you talking about?

MR CASSIM: I always believed that it was match reports, the pitch reports, the team selections, the bowling.

MS BATOHI: Is that what you told Mr Cronjé when you spoke to him? That Sanjay ...(intervention)

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: Well, look at Mr Cronjé's statement, paragraph 61. You have agreed that Mr Cronjé - you contacted him in Sharjah, told him that Sanjay wished to resume contact with him. Do you follow? And then Mr Cronjé says that he wanted to resume - you told him that Sanjay wished to resume contact 'along the same lines as in India'. And when Mr Manca questioned you about this, you said you couldn't deny this. That means you agreed with him that you could possibly have told Mr Cronjé that. Do you follow?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MS BATOHI: Now on that basis, what would you have meant? If you - you've agreed, you haven't said, 'Look, no. I could never have told that to Mr Cronjé because I wouldn't have known what was going on in India.' You've agreed that you could possibly have told that to Mr Cronjé. Now in the light of that, what would you have meant if you said he wanted to resume contact along the same lines as in India?

MR CASSIM: My belief was still that - what I believe is that they wanted to resume the - the relationship that they had in India.

MS BATOHI: I'm not asking you about what your belief was. What did you tell Mr Cronjé what Mr Sanjay wanted? You said he - Mr Cronjé says that Sanjay wanted to resume contact, which is what you told him, along the same lines as in India. Now what did you tell Mr Cronjé? And I'm going to ask you this for the last time, I hope, what did you mean when you said, 'along the same lines as in India'?

MR CASSIM: What I meant was how you were helping Sanjay in India, he wants you to help him here in Sharjah.

MS BATOHI: How was Mr Cronjé helping Sanjay in India to your knowledge?

MR CASSIM: I really don't know. I can't tell you how Mr Cronjé was helping Sanjay in India.

MS BATOHI: Wasn't it match forecasting, pitch report, team selections?

MR CASSIM: That's what I told you, but I mean, further then that I don't know, more than that how much he was helping Mr Chawla.

MS BATOHI: Why when I asked you what he was helping him for you say, 'I don't know', and then when I remind you that you've already testified about these things, then you agree with me? Are you being entirely honest with this Commission, Mr Cassim?

MR CASSIM: I'm being entirely honest with this Commission.

MS BATOHI: Well, look at paragraph 9 of your statement, page 16. You deal specifically with the phone call from Mr Cronjé - by you to Mr Cronjé in Sharjah, Dubai. I'll read it to you:

"At a later stage when South Africa went to Dubai to play the Sharjah Cup, friends of mine told me they were going to watch the game and asked me whether or not I could try and arrange some tickets for the games. I thereafter contacted Mr Cronjé and asked him whether or not he was in a position to try to arrange some tickets for the series."

Okay? So you're now talking here about this same phone call that you've testified about now when you asked him about the tickets, and also told him that Sanjay wanted to resume contact along the same lines as in India, isn't that so?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: Why do you leave out the part about Sanjay and only talk about the tickets?

MR CASSIM: Like I told you I was going through a very difficult time in my life, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: You remember a simple thing, and insignificant thing like the tickets, and knowing that this Commission of Inquiry is really dealing with match-fixing, you forget to mention that you also talked about Sanjay wanting to resume contact with him. Can you comment on that?

MR CASSIM: Comment on what?

MS BATOHI: Was there any contact, to your knowledge, between Sanjay and Mr Cronjé in Sharjah?

MR CASSIM: Phrase that question again, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: Was there any contact, as far as you know, between Sanjay and Mr Cronjé during the Sharjah Cup?

MR CASSIM: I can't remember.

MS BATOHI: Just dealing with that money which you say that Mr Chawla handed to Mr Cronjé at the room in the Beverley Hills in Umhlanga. It's just something that's just so obvious, you state an envelope and Mr Cronjé has said a cellphone box. Now that's two totally different things, I mean an envelope and a cellphone box, can't really mistake those two. What is the position? Can you just explain that?

MR CASSIM: I think it was an envelope and Mr Cronjé says it's a cellphone box, I'm still baffled about that.

MS BATOHI: Do you think perhaps Mr Cronjé was given an envelope and a cellphone box, containing a cellphone perhaps?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: Are you saying he did not get a box containing a cellphone?

MR CASSIM: Sorry? He did not get a box containing a cellphone.

MS BATOHI: Was it just one thing? Was it just an envelope or a cellphone box, or is it possible that there were two things, and in your mind are you absolutely sure it was an envelope?

MR CASSIM: I'm absolutely sure it was an envelope.

MS BATOHI: How big was this envelope?

MR CASSIM: I can't even tell you how big the envelope was, really. It was about this size? It wasn't a big envelope, that I can tell you.

COMMISSIONER: That's time out for the sixth round. You know there are two forms of what you might call ordinary envelope. There's the smaller one and then there's the longer one. Can you remember which of those it was?

MR CASSIM: It was the longer one.

MS BATOHI: And you said that there were dollars in there.

MR CASSIM: I presume if anybody takes something out of a safe, it must have been money.

MS BATOHI: You didn't answer, you didn't listen to my question.

MR CASSIM: Dollars.

MS BATOHI: Why do you presume it was dollars?

MR CASSIM: I mean, if you put something in the safe and take it out there, if it had been a letter or an envelope or just an ordinary documentation, I'm sure you wouldn't leave it in the safe.

MS BATOHI: No, no, Mr Cassim. You understand my question perfectly. Why do you think it was dollars, and not as opposed to rands or pounds, for that matter, because Mr - bearing in mind Mr Chawla was coming from London. Why did you say dollars? Why did you say dollars? Why did you think there were dollars in that envelope? Just explain that.

MR CASSIM: Mr Chawla said, 'Keep this money. We'll have further discussions.'

MS BATOHI: No. It still doesn't answer my question.

COMMISSIONER: May I ask you this? When Mr Chawla reimbursed you for the cost of your ticket, and he paid you in cash, what sort of money was that? Dollars?

MR CASSIM: He paid me in Rands.

COMMISSIONER: Rands?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

COMMISSIONER: But you say that you think that the money that was in the envelope given to Mr Cronjé was in dollars?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: Well, look, Mr Cassim, there must be some basis for you to think that. You can't just think it was dollars for no reason. So unless you have some knowledge about what was in there, why did you presume - give us a basis for that. Why did you presume that it was Dollars? You may have a very good reason for it. Tell us why you thought it was dollars.

MR CASSIM: I suppose when Sanjay took the money - the envelope out of the safe, I mean, it couldn't have been anything else to give to Mr Cronjé.

MS BATOHI: Why? It could have been Rands. He paid you in rands. It could have been pounds, he's coming from London. Why do you presume it's dollars?

MR CASSIM: I can't tell you why I presume it was dollars, but it just came to my mind that it must have been dollars.

MS BATOHI: I just find it strange why it just came to your mind that it was dollars. Did some - was there some discussion there about what was in that envelope?

MR CASSIM: Not that I can recall.

MS BATOHI: Mr Cronjé or Mr Chawla at some later stage tell you what was in that envelope?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: For the last time, why did you think it was dollars?

MR CASSIM: I can't answer that, Adv Batohi. It just came to my mind it was dollars.

COMMISSIONER: But what was the cost of a flight, return flight Johannesburg/Durban? What, about R1 500, something like that?

MR CASSIM: It was R1 380 I think.

COMMISSIONER: And he happened to have R1 380 available to himself to give to you. That also strikes me as curious.

MR CASSIM: That's correct. He had it by him, R1 380.

MS BATOHI: Just on that aspect of the phone call which my learned friend Mr Manca spoke to you about, I'm referring now to page 16 of your statement, paragraph 8.26. Do you have that? It says clearly in the first, in the statement that I have that it was - you received:

"....a phone call from Sanjay asking you if you could contact Mr Cronjé he was not able to get through to him on his mobile. I thereafter contacted Mr Cronjé and told him that Sanjay was trying to get hold of him. And I heard nothing further."

Now it's apparent from that context of state - of that particular paragraph, you're talking about a single phone call. Before the change, okay? You say:

"I had a phone call. I phoned Mr Cronjé, contacted him and I heard nothing further."

Okay? And then over this weekend you changed that to phone calls. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: And that would have been after Mr Cronjé's testimony and after the diagram regarding the cellphones had been handed to all counsel on Friday, isn't that so? It's not - there's nothing to think about, Mr Cassim. You get the diagram on Friday, it's two days ago, and on the weekend you change that to read 'phone calls'. Isn't that correct?

MR CASSIM: I changed it to - I changed it on - we changed it over the weekend, yes. It was phone calls and not a phone call.

MS BATOHI: Yes. So what I'm saying to you is that after you get the diagram, which clearly shows a number of phone calls, you then changed that to 'phone calls'. Isn't it because of what you saw in the diagram, you realised that you statement - you were going to be caught out in this regard?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: Why - what made you changed this to 'phone calls' then?

MR CASSIM: Because I know I have made numerous calls, not only to Hansie, to all the players. If you take it in context, probably in a year - it could be 500 calls to all the players.

MS BATOHI: So why did your in your original statement say:

"I did however, receive a phone call from Sanjay"

asking if you could contact Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: I did not see Sanjay's diagram at all.

MS BATOHI: You don't understand me. If your evidence now is that you received so many phone calls from Sanjay asking you to contact Mr Cronjé, why did your original statement, before the correction over this weekend, say 'a phone call from Sanjay', and why did it not reflect all the phone calls that you'd made?

MR CASSIM: It could have been hindsight.

MS BATOHI: You actually signed that statement. It was a commissioned statement, which you signed before a Commissioner of Oaths, indicating that everything was correct. And then over this weekend, after you get the diagram with all the phone calls you change it. Why did you say in the first place 'a phone call', when in fact there were a number of calls?

MR CASSIM: I made a mistake.

MS BATOHI: You didn't make a mistake, Mr Cassim. I'm putting it to you that you were trying to mislead this Commission, and when you became aware on Friday as a result of having received that diagram, that you were not going to be able to get away with this because of the number of calls there, you then changed it over this weekend. Isn't that correct?

MR CASSIM: It's not so.

MS BATOHI: Yes. I recall you counsel led you on something about what you felt was going on, I think towards the end, I must get this right. Unfortunately, I haven't made a full note of it. It was earlier today, so let me try to get this correct. I think - maybe your counsel will correct me if I'm wrong, but what you - what was put to you and what you agreed to was that during the dealings with Hansie Cronjé and Sanjay, Hansie was actually just keeping up this charade, I think that was the word he used. There was no real arrangement between them, but Hansie was basically just stringing Sanjay along, and you said yes, that was what you believed. Can you confirm that?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MS BATOHI: Well, I can't understand that. In the light of the fact that in the first place you say you know nothing about what was going on, and in the second place you're present when there's talks about match forecasting and team selections, and number of runs and batting order, and who is going to be bowling and then there's money handed over, in the light of your evidence that you really didn't know what was going on, why do you say Hansie was just conducting this charade? Why do you say that? On what basis do you say that?

MR CASSIM: Rephrase that question again, please, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: You were lead by your counsel, and he put it to you that as far as you knew the dealings between Sanjay and Mr Cronjé, it was just a charade. Mr Cronjé basically wasn't serious, he was stringing him along, so to speak. And you agreed, you said yes, that was your understanding of their arrangement. Now how could you say that? How could you agree when on your own evidence you had no idea of what was going on between them?

MR CASSIM: That's what I read in the newspapers.

MS BATOHI: I'm not interested in what you read in the newspapers about Mr Cronjé. This was asked about what you believed what was happening. Your counsel led you on it. And I remember particularly he used the word charade, and giving the impression that Cronjé was just not serious, he was just stringing him along. And you said yes to that. Now my question is how could you possibly say that Mr Cronjé was just conducting this charade, when you say you don't even know what was going on?

MR CASSIM: I definitely do not know what was going on, but from what I gathered that is what - that's what Cronjé was doing.

MS BATOHI: It was not from what you gathered. It was your opinion on the basis of what you knew had happened. Now you said as far as you were concerned it was just a charade, to use your counsel's words, between Mr Cronjé. What did you mean by that? You had no idea what was going on. They could have been fixing matches and doing all sorts of deals. Would you have known about that?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: How then can you say categorically that as far as you were concerned it was this charade. How can you say that when you didn't know?

MR CASSIM: I just presumed so.

COMMISSIONER: Actually, the note that I have reflects that Mr Cassim didn't say yes, categorically. He answered, 'I think so', when it was put to him by his counsel that Cronjé was indulging in a charade. He answered affirmatively, not quite categorically.

MS BATOHI: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. I don't have a full note on that. You see, that is what I'm putting to you. You were saying in your evidence that you believed that there was this charade between Mr Cronjé and Mr Chawla. That is what you believed was happening. Now my question to you is how could you have believed this on the basis of what you knew about what was taking place? How could you believe this when you say you didn't even know what was happening?

MR CASSIM: That's only after I read it in the newspapers.

MS BATOHI: What has the newspapers got to do with what you believed in? The question to you was what did you think was going on, did you think it was a charade, and you said, 'Yes'. Can you comment on that?

MR CASSIM: From what I gather, I think Hansie was stringing Sanjay along.

MS BATOHI: Well, that's exactly it, Mr Cassim. Why do you think that? On your - what did you know about this relationship to make you think that Mr Cronjé was stringing him along?

MR CASSIM: I didn't know much about this relationship.

MS BATOHI: Then why do you say you think Mr Cronjé was stringing him along?

MR CASSIM: I can't answer that.

COMMISSIONER: Do you think that from your knowledge of Sanjay Chawla, that he's the sort of man that will pay a substantial amount of money in dollars, up-front, and just allow himself to be strung along?

MR CASSIM: I don't know.

COMMISSIONER: Well, you know him, I don't, but I find from the little I've heard about the gentleman that that's very unlikely.

MS BATOHI: Mr Cassim, this number 83674 1416 is a cellphone number, which we gave to your counsel and asked him to ask you whether you knew whose number that was. Can you tell me whose number that is? We got some vague reply from you. Can you tell me, now having thought about it for quite a while, I think it's about a week or so, whose number is that, 83764 1416? Sorry, I beg your pardon?

MR CASSIM: It's a pre-paid card.

MS BATOHI: We've established that. It is a pay-as-you-go card. How do you know that?

MR CASSIM: Those two actresses were here from India and I gave both of them pre-paid cards. One to Renu and one to Amisha.

MS BATOHI: But this is your number.

MR CASSIM: Sorry? It's my number.

MS BATOHI: That's my question, Mr Cassim. This is your number, it's your phone number.

MR CASSIM: Yes, I bought the pre-paid cards and I gave them the cards, and I gave them phones to use.

MS BATOHI: And you kept those cards after they'd left and you used it?

MR CASSIM: I've kept the one, and the one I've destroyed.

MS BATOHI: I am not interested in the other one, I'm talking about the one number that I gave you. You kept that and you used it, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: ...calls to Mr Chawla on that phone? Or received calls from him on that phone?

MR CASSIM: I think so.

MS BATOHI: You said you destroyed one of the cards. What was the number of that one?

MR CASSIM: The one that I destroyed, I don't - can't remember the number, but I will tell you the day this came out I phoned Sanjay and I told him, 'What were you up to?' I called him from this - I - it was one of the pre-paid cards, I don't recall the number, but I phoned him and I said, 'Sanjay, what were you up to? You actually lied to me what you were doing.'

MS BATOHI: What did he say?

MR CASSIM: He had no answer for me, and from that day I've never, ever contacted Sanjay, and I wish to state categorically that if I ever get hold of Sanjay, I feel him sorry.

MS BATOHI: Did you tell your counsel that you phoned Mr Sanjay on that card when this whole thing blew up and asked him - or had a conversation similar to that which you just testified about?

MR CASSIM: I told it to Mr Blumberg while we were going home on Friday.

MS BATOHI: Have you any idea why that's not in your statement, because basically it supports your version that you had no idea about what was going on. You phone Sanjay and say, 'What were you up to?' Why didn't you put that in your statement?

MR CASSIM: I mean, I think I've got it somewhere along in my statement where I said I didn't know what they were doing.

MS BATOHI: That's not my question, Mr Cassim. Why didn't you put just what you testified about now in your statement? It lends credibility to your version that you had no idea what was going on. Why is that not in your statement? This last -this call to Sanjay to say, 'What were you doing?', why is it not in your statement?

MR CASSIM: I can't tell you why I didn't put it in my statement.

MS BATOHI: Why did you destroy one of those cards? Pay-as-you-go cards. Which one did you destroy? Is it this one, the number which I gave to you, or is it the other one that you don't remember?

MR CASSIM: It's - I - it's probably this one.

MS BATOHI: Why did you do that, because the amazing thing is that calls to this number stop on the 11th of April. That was the day Mr Cronjé made the revelations. Why did you destroy that card?

MR CASSIM: I thought Sanjay would call me again on that number. And in actual fact, it was a pre-paid card so I didn't need it again. I just threw it away.

MS BATOHI: Why did you do that? And the strange thing is that calls to that number stop on the 11th of April, the same day that we get the bombshell from Mr Cronjé, you destroy that card. Why?

MR CASSIM: I was very upset with Sanjay.

MS BATOHI: You're upset with Sanjay and you destroy the card?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MS BATOHI: Explain that please. What had the destruction of the card to do with your being upset with Sanjay?

MR CASSIM: I actually got scared, that I used my pre-paid card. I mean, I could have used my shop phone to phone Sanjay, I could have used my - I mean, I used to use my shop phone, I used to use my house phone.

MS BATOHI: But what did you get scared about?

MR CASSIM: What has transpired, what Sanjay was doing.

MS BATOHI: What did you get scared about? You didn't - you weren't involved in this thing, why did you get scared, and why did you destroy that card?

MR CASSIM: Because I introduced him to Mr Cronjé.

MS BATOHI: You've introduced lots of people to Mr Cronjé, Mr Cassim. Why did you get scared? It was an innocuous act on your part, on your evidence. You introduced him to Mr Cronjé, as you've done with a number of other people, and then you get scared and you destroy the card. Can you explain that?

MR CASSIM: I can't explain it to you, Adv Batohi, really.

MS BATOHI: And you other number, ending with 5950, I'm not going to give the full number. You didn't destroy that card.

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: Why not? Is that because there were no - is that because there were no calls to Mr Chawla on that phone?

MR CASSIM: I can't phone overseas, but I can have incoming calls on that.

MS BATOHI: Yes, so is that because there were no calls that could be picked up on that phone to Mr Chawla, that you did not destroy that, because you knew there will be no evidence of you contacting him on that phone.

MR CASSIM: I've had that mobile number now for the last couple of good years.

MS BATOHI: Yes, but you're not - why did you - why haven't you destroyed that number - that card as well?

MR CASSIM: No, because I'm sure you could have picked it up, if any incoming calls were coming on that phone as well.

MS BATOHI: You earlier said that one of the reasons why you destroyed the pay-as-you-go card was because you were afraid that Sanjay was going to call you on that number. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: But he had your 5950 number, which he could easily contact you on, and on which in fact he made 29 calls to you. So he could have contacted you on the other number. That doesn't give an explanation for destroying the Pay-as-you-go-card.

MR CASSIM: I think probably Sanjay would never wanted to call me on my other number.

MS BATOHI: I think the simple answer to that, Mr Cassim, is you were trying to destroy evidence. Your comment on that?

MR CASSIM: I don't agree on that, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: So I'm going to just go through very quickly, just to give the Commission some sort of idea of the sort of contact that you had with Mr Cronjé - I'm not sure if you've a copy of this - you've got a copy of the diagram? The circular one with all the players names, yes. Now if you looked at the attached detailed billing, the record of the telephone calls.

Thank you, Mr Commissioner. This list contains telephone calls between you and Mr Cronjé from the 1st of November 1999 until 6th of April 2000, and the easy way that one can figure out who's calling who, the number ends with a one on the end it's you making the call. The minute there's a zero, then that's a call coming in from Mr Cronjé. So you see most of the calls seem to be calls that you were making to Mr Cronjé. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MS BATOHI: And from the 1st of November there seems to be one call, two calls, three calls a day perhaps, running up to about the 21st of January. And that's just midway down the page, from the 22nd - see, there's four calls, fairly short in duration, from about one, that's 13h03 to about 20 to 11 that night. And it would appear there that you were trying to contact Mr Cronjé without success, is that correct? Do you see the calls on the 22nd of January? There are four calls from you to him. The five seconds, three seconds, nine seconds, three seconds, indicates that they were very short calls. Is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: Do you follow? But right up until 20 to 11 that night, on the 22nd of January, you were trying to contact Mr Cronjé, and this would have been just a week or 10 days before Mr Chawla was due to arrive. Why were you - can you recall, why were you trying to contact Mr Cronjé on the 22nd, to the extent that you even made a call at - almost 25 to 11 that night?

MR CASSIM: If you can assist me, Advocate. Were they playing a One-day international match anywhere?

MS BATOHI: I'll tell you in a minute. Yes, the One-day international on the 23rd of January was between South Africa and England at Bloemfontein. That was on the following day.

MR CASSIM: Were there any matches thereafter? Sorry.

MS BATOHI: Well, just before I answer that, why does the fact that there was a One-day international following on that, why was that important to you? Before you ...(intervention)

MR CASSIM: Probably I needed tickets from Mr Cronjé. I would always phone him, I would phone Goolam, I would phone Herschelle, I don't phone Kallis, I would phone Lance Klusener.

MS BATOHI: Alright, fine. But then I told you that there was a One-day international on the day following, and then you said, 'Any other matches after that?' So if you had phoned because you wanted tickets, then you would just said, 'Yes, I probably wanted tickets.' Why do you want to know about the next match now.

MR CASSIM: I thought probably they were playing in Cape Town. If they were playing in Cape Town I would get tickets for my nieces, if they were playing in Durban, for my brother.

MS BATOHI: So are you saying then that because it was in Bloemfontein, chances are that you didn't want tickets?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: So why were you desperate to contact him up until 20 to 11 that night, the 22nd of January?

MR CASSIM: Being my nature, if you see I mmake phone calls to the other players as well, I make calls late at night with them as well.

MS BATOHI: Please, you're phoning the national Captain. He might be sleeping 'cause he's got a match the next morning. You phoned him at 20 to 11 just to say, 'Hi'. Is that what you're saying?

MR CASSIM: ...at any time really, because they'll entertain my calls, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: Are you seriously saying that you would phone somebody at 20 to 11, even though he might be sleeping, he's the national captain and he's got a match the next day just to say, 'Hello', to him?

MR CASSIM: Yes.

MS BATOHI: He was prepared to entertain your calls at that time of the night? You must have been a very, very close friend of his.

MR CASSIM: Yes. Not only him, with all the other players as well.

MS BATOHI: I'm not interested in the other players for a moment. You must have been a very, very close friend of Mr Cronjé's for him to be prepared to entertain a call from you just saying 'Hi' at 20 to 11 at night.

MR CASSIM: The relationship we developed, I guess we were very close friends.

MS BATOHI: Do you know then why he refers to you as a hanger-on in his statement?

MR CASSIM: I'm always hanging around at the grounds, by the players, at the dressing rooms. I'll always - if it's in Jo'burg at the Sandton Sun, I'll go at any time and they will all talk to me.

MS BATOHI: You see, Mr Cassim, your counsel Mr Blumberg, when he cross-examined Mr Cronjé in fact took up that very point, because he said that that is, to use his word, I think an 'insulting' term he put to Mr Cronjé, because you were not a hanger-on. So if you felt that Mr Cronjé was such a close friend that you could call him at 11 or 20 to 11, why would he refer to you as a hanger-on? You yourself - well, in cross-examination your counsel made it quite clear that they didn't think that that comment - that term was particularly complimentary. Why would he refer to you as a hanger-on if, on your evidence, he was such a good friend that he was prepared to entertain calls to say 'Hi' at 20 to 11 at night?

MR CASSIM: I can't tell you that, why he said that.

COMMISSIONER: Do you think perhaps he was trying to distance himself from you

MR CASSIM: No, I don't think so.

MS BATOHI: And then on the 24th. The 23rd was the match that I've just told you about, South Africa versus England in Bloemfontein. You made two calls on that and then on the 24th you made 1, 2 , 3, 4, 5 calls to Mr Cronjé. One of them - well, I beg your pardon, you made 1, 2, 3, 4 calls to him. The fifth call he made to you on the 24th, and that was at 10 past 10 that night. Now the calls were - the first call you made to him on the morning of the 24th was for 122 seconds, so that's quite a long call, it's not just, 'Hi, hello, how are you?' And the last call that he made to you that evening is 173 seconds. Now there is - that's on the 24th. There was no match following on the next day. There was a match, South Africa versus England in Newlands on the 26th. Now why on the 24th? Can you explain those five calls between you and Mr Cronjé on the 24th?

MR CASSIM: It's going to be very difficult to explain why on those day was there five calls. I can't recall everything.

MS BATOHI: Yes, and on the 25th you make 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7 calls to him on the 25th. Can you explain that? What was the purpose of all these calls, 25th, 26th?

MR CASSIM: Like I say, the ...(intervention)

MS BATOHI: 24th, 25th, sorry.

MR CASSIM: Adv Batohi, like I say, the person that I am and my nature, I will pick up the phone and phone all the players at any time. I know we're going to carry on with this, but I would phone the players at odd times, any time, sometimes 4 to 5 times a day, just to talk to them.

COMMISSIONER: Miss Batohi, sorry to interrupt your cross-examination. These figures under the column 'duration' ...(intervention)

MS BATOHI: That's the seconds.

COMMISSIONER: Are they seconds?

MS BATOHI: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Well, how do you account for the two calls on the 25th of January, near the foot of the page, where it's 0.2 ...(intervention)

MS BATOHI: It should read 23 and 35 seconds.

COMMISSIONER: Seconds?

MR CASSIM: Well, if that's the way that is styled, 0.35, I can understand it. In other words, no minutes, 35 seconds. But these other numbers, 3, 4, 23, 6, are those all seconds?

MS BATOHI: Yes, I've just spoken to my investigator and he's been dealing with this. He says when you get these cellphone records, some of the MTN records reflect it in that fashion, 0.23 meaning 23 seconds. And the others are also seconds.

COMMISSIONER: Alright. Thank you.

MS BATOHI: You see on the 26th Mr Cassim, there's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 calls - 6 calls between - you in fact made all 6 of those calls to Mr Cronjé. The first one started at 10:48 in the morning. The next five calls are between 23:17 and 23.55, that's just before midnight. So in the space of about 40 minutes that evening, well late that night, you were desperate to contact Mr Cronjé. It wasn't just as a friend saying, 'Hi, hello.' You made 5 phone calls to him, the last one at 5 to 12, midnight. Why were you desperate to speak to him that evening?

MR CASSIM: Once again, was there a One-day match? Probably I needed tickets.

MS BATOHI: Well, there was a One-day match, but it was over. It was on the same day.

MR CASSIM: I can't tell you then why I was calling him.

MS BATOHI: It seems like calls in desperation. You wanted to make contact with him, and you knew that he'd have no problem with you calling him at midnight.

MR CASSIM: I don't think so. Like I say, Adv Batohi, if you go through my cellphone records, I mean not only with Mr Cronjé, with all the other players, including my friends, if I can't get hold of them I become very agitated, and I can phone them us to 10 times in 20 minutes.

MS BATOHI: Well, that's exactly what your contact with Mr Cronjé reflects. On the 27th then you make 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 calls to him. There's one call that's particularly long, 212 seconds. And then on the 28th you make just two calls to him. On the 29th - and that is the day on which, on our evidence, Sanjay left London for South Africa and arrived in South Africa on the 30th. On the 29th you make, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 - 16 phone calls to Mr Cronjé on the 29th. That's the day Sanjay left London. Can you explain that?

MR CASSIM: I can't explain it to you because like I says if Hansie didn't answer his phone the way I look at it here, 3 seconds, 2 seconds, why I phoned him, I can't tell you why I called him.

MS BATOHI: I'm telling you why you called him. You knew Sanjay was on his way and you had to introduce him and you had to make the necessary arrangements. Isn't that correct?

MR CASSIM: No.

MS BATOHI: Your last call in fact to him on the 29th is at 23h46, it's quarter-to twelve, 15 minutes before midnight. You're obviously desperate to phone him, contact him. You make 16 calls that day. Can you explain that?

MR CASSIM: Like I said, I can't explain it Adv Batohi why I wanted to get hold of him.

MS BATOHI: On the 30th you make 28 calls to him on 30th, which is the day that Sanjay arrives. The first call to him is at 7:20 in the morning, and the last call is at 21h43. They're all pretty short calls, a couple of seconds, which would indicate that you're trying to contact him. Why were you desperately trying to contact him, 28 calls on the 30th? Can you explain that?

MR CASSIM: Once again, I can't explain it, why I phoned him so many times.

MS BATOHI: Look, you must surely realise Mr Cassim, you don't make 16 and 28 calls to Mr Cronjé, you make three or four calls a day. What was the sudden urgency during the time that Mr Chawla was about to land in South Africa?

MR CASSIM: I can't explain to you what was the urgency.

COMMISSIONER: ...be able to give some sort of explanation, Mr Cassim. It's not all that long ago. This was this year, January month. I think you need to think about it a little bit before simply answering that you can't explain.

MS BATOHI: Bear with me, Mr Commissioner. And then on the 31st there's 13 calls to Mr Cronjé, and then after that from the 1st - if you'll bear with me, in fact the 31st is the day on which we agreed earlier was the Sunday which Mr Cronjé met Mr Chawla. I beg your pardon, that's a Monday. He arrived on the Sunday, the 30th. So the 31st is the meeting, there's 13 calls on the 31st, and then after that, from the 1st, you find your calls then move from 1 to 2 a day, 3. And then on the 5th you make 12 calls to Mr Cronjé. Can you explain those 12 calls? Starting at about - the first one, on the morning of the 5th as at 35 minutes past midnight on the 5th of February, and there's an 18 second conversation. Now look, what was - why - what was the need for you to call Mr Cronjé at 35 minutes past midnight on the 5th, and in fact have an 18 second conversation? What was that about?

MR CASSIM: I just can't remember, Adv Batohi.

COMMISSIONER: Even more an unusual call, this is at half-past midnight, surely you can remember something about that call?

Ms Batohi, while Mr Cassim is thinking about it, we've reached the stage of the day where normally we would adjourn.

MS BATOHI: Mr Commissioner, I don't expect to be very much longer, and I do understand that my learned friend Mr Witz would like to leave this evening. If we could perhaps carry on? I'll be not more than 10 minutes, maybe 5 to 10 minutes. Thank you.

Your meeting with Mr Cronjé and Mr Chawla, what time did it take place on that Monday the 31st? Considering also that there was - no, just think about that.

MR CASSIM: I think it was between 5:30 and 6 o'clock.

MS BATOHI: Why did you call Mr Cronjé at 5 to 10 and have a conversation for 2 minutes and 5 seconds? That's after the money's changed hands and there's been this discussion that you testified about forecasting, et cetera. Why did you phone Mr Cronjé the same night, 5 to 11, have a 2 minutes and 5 second conversation? It couldn't have been just to say, 'Hi', 'cause you had just left him.

Can you answer that, Mr Cassim. Do you have a problem answering that question?

MR CASSIM: I just can't recall why we should speak so long.

MS BATOHI: See, it's on the same day. It's very important there that you introduce Mr Chawla. You have this long discussion, there's money changing hands, and later on that evening you phone at 5 to 11 and have a 2 minute, just over 2 minute discussion with Mr Cronjé. What was the need for you to do that that evening, if it wasn't to discuss what had just happened earlier that evening?

MR CASSIM: It wasn't what - it wasn't to discuss what happened earlier.

MS BATOHI: Well, tell us what was that call about?

MR CASSIM: We were just speak generally, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: What was the need ...(intervention)

MR CASSIM: I had a lot of conversations with Hansie generally.

MS BATOHI: No, Mr Cassim, I'm not going to belabour this point, but you've had a meeting with him earlier, you spoke generally I take it. What was the need to phone later at 5 to 11, to have a general conversation when you've only just met the man a couple of hours before that?

I see you're having difficulty answering that question. I think we'll just leave it at that. On the 5th you made 12 calls to Mr Cronjé. Any explanation for that? And there're some quite long calls, I see. There's one for 77 seconds, 86 seconds, 56 seconds, 92 seconds. So they're not just trying to contact him. You actually speak to Mr Cronjé at least 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ,6, 7, 8 times on the 5th. What was that about?

MR CASSIM: Was Mr Chawla still in the country at that time?

MS BATOHI: He wasn't.

MR CASSIM: Probably Mr Chawla would have contacted me, asked me to get hold of Hansie, if he could phone him.

MS BATOHI: Yes, but then you would have gotten hold of him the first time that you spoke to him on the 5th, which was at 35 minutes past midnight for 18 seconds. Then you phoned him at 8:23 that morning for 19 seconds. You just talk to him. Then you phone him at 9:01 for 77 seconds, and it goes on. 16:39 for 86 seconds. So if Mr Chawla phoned you to tell you to contact Mr Cronjé, what's all these conversations about, if that was all it was, as you would like this Commission believe?

MR CASSIM: Once again, I just can't remember all these conversations, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: Wasn't it to clarify your role in this relationship, Mr Cassim? Weren't you really the middle-man? Weren't you making arrangements with Hansie, et cetera, on behalf of Sanjay?

MR CASSIM: No, definitely not.

MS BATOHI: Just one other thing. When you consulted with us you said to me that Mr Cronjé had phoned you after the storm broke and told you not to say anything, you remember that?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: Why would he do that if you knew nothing?

MR CASSIM: Probably whatever him and Sanjay did, he didn't want me to discuss it with anybody, it was there problem.

MS BATOHI: No further questions, Mr Commissioner.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BATOHI

COMMISSIONER: Re-examination, Mr Witz?

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WITZ: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. I've got no re-examination for Mr Cassim.

COMMISSIONER: Now, Ms Batohi.

MS BATOHI: I beg your pardon, Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Granted.

MS BATOHI: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Where do we go from here?

MS BATOHI: Well, Mr Commissioner, at this stage there's - due to various reasons I had wanted to contact - to call Mr Goolam Rajah and Mr Robbie Muzzell, but there's some difficulties with Mr Muzzell coming down before Thursday, and Mr Rajah had indicated that he was available to come tomorrow, but he is indisposed to a certain extent, he's had an operation.

So at this stage, I would ask that we simply adjourn proceedings. At this point there's been no discussion about when we would resume, but your interim report is due on Friday. So I don't intend calling any further witnesses before then.

We'll have to discuss what procedure we'll follow from here, but what I would like to, before you take over, Mr Commissioner, say in view of the fact that this is being televised, I have - it appears to me that that hotline which has been established by the King Commission has not been publicised as extensively as I would like it to, so I would just like to take this opportunity of mentioning the number of the hotline, which is 0800 005750. And I would just like to appeal to anybody with any information that they think that could be relevant to your inquiry to please come forward, and let us have the investigation so we can look into it or investigate and decide what to do with it. But once again, I'll just repeat that number, it's 0800 005750. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: I also have a request, which I would appreciate if the media were to give it some measure of prominence. I don't suppose there's a pub in the country where the question of how to eradicate what's wrong with cricket, not only in South Africa but internationally, can be achieved, and I would welcome suggestions from members of the public as to appropriate measures to take to eradicate cricket match-fixing and matters and activities related thereto, and I could be contacted care of Commission of Inquiry. The address would simply be Commission of Inquiry, Private Bag X9149, Cape Town, 8000. And the fax is 021-4614194, the Private Bag I'll repeat, X9149, Cape Town, 8000, fax 021-461494.

I propose now to postpone the matter without a date for resumption being fixed. That will be done in consultation with the legal representatives of the various parties who will still be concerned in the affairs of the Commission at that stage, and also of course with regard to the convenience of witnesses, some of whom may be called for the first time, others of whom may have to be recalled as the proceedings continue, to deal not only with further and additional issues but also possibly to revisit issues which have already been canvassed.

In that respect, I will ask the Secretariat, or particularly Mr Bacon, to advise the media timeously of the date of the resumption of this Commission. Also ask their kind favours to publicise the resumption date. Then for the moment, this Commission stands postponed.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS TO A DATE TO BE ANNOUNCED


Related Links:

Cricinfo's Coverage of Match-Fixing Allegations